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Author Topic: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone  (Read 17517 times)

jacksmack

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War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« on: September 18, 2014, 08:45:31 AM »
Will the warlord be forced to attack himself or a friendly creature / conjuration if there is only 1 enemy creature in his zone - when he is declaring a full round sweep attack (war sledge)?
(the quick attack on this weapon does not daze, but the full action attack does.)

sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 09:56:52 AM »
Quote
Sweeping (Attack Trait)

 This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone. Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have Flying, the second target must also not have Flying.

If a creature uses a Sweeping attack that also has Reach, then the above restriction does not apply; the second target can be Flying or non-Flying, independent of the first target.
The Underline and Bold are my doings....
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jacksmack

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 10:35:01 AM »
I need more words from you to understand your point.

you can target yourself and also your own creatures etc. So there is valid targets.

sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 11:01:14 AM »
Shift Clicking on card and dragging mouse pointer to target card. Bullseye!
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Schwenkgott

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 11:16:43 AM »
Rules and Codex Supplement Page 5:

<A creature may even attack itself, if it is a legal target for its own attack.>
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Wildhorn

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 12:49:47 PM »
If there is not a 2nd creature to slow down that hammer swing, you hit yourself in the head ;)

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 12:51:28 PM »
In that case the only time there would not be a valid target would be if selsius attacked in rolling fog
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Zuberi

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 04:17:30 PM »
The only time there would not be a valid secondary target would be if you were all alone and decided to attack yourself initially. I'm not sure the rules were intended to force you to hit yourself if you wanted to use a sweeping attack against a single opponent, but I am having trouble finding an argument against that opinion.

DaveW

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 04:54:01 PM »
I would say that there exists the option to attack an additional Creature, but that there exists no requirement to do so based on the rules under Mandatory Actions.

"Some effects will require a creature to perform a specific action, such as making a melee attack against a
particular enemy creature in its zone. Currently, the only such effects are Bloodthirsty and Taunt. These effects are referred to as mandatory actions."

(The underlining is mine for emphasis.)
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Zuberi

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 09:22:16 PM »
That is the same line of reasoning I was trying to explore myself in researching this, but it didn't really pan out for me. You are correct that this doesn't fall under the category of a mandatory action. However, at the point being discussed, you've already chosen to take the action by making the sweeping attack in the first place. The only thing left is to select the targets of it. We're not discussing taking an action, but rather finishing an action that you've already taken. Nothing in the rulebook or FAQ indicates that the second attack is in any way optional once a sweeping attack has already been initiated. It all indicates that you must finish the action if possible.

sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 10:19:58 PM »
I'm baffled, I posted straight from the FAQ the answer. If the player chooses not to target a second creature then there is "not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." This would include himself....
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jacksmack

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 12:20:39 AM »
I'm baffled, I posted straight from the FAQ the answer. If the player chooses not to target a second creature then there is "not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." This would include himself....

Thats not what i get out of the bit you posted - and especially not the bolded/underlined piece.

I consider my friendly creautre and even my own mage who is doing the attack a valid target. Thats my problem.
This is what im seeking clarification of. Am i forced to attack myself or my own creature if i wish to try to land a daze marker using the war sledge against an enemy solo mage?

Schwenkgott

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2014, 01:35:53 AM »
Yes.

<A creature may even attack itself, if it is a legal target for its own attack.>
You are a legal target.

<If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.>
You have to attack two targets to use the sweeping attack.

-> Hit the enemy with the first strike (in order to get +melee bonus), and hit your face with the second attack.
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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2014, 06:27:00 AM »
@Zuberi: Good point... this is a different animal.

@sIKE: I'm with Jack.. I got the complete opposite idea from reading your other post. It didn't help that you didn't explain what you meant by quoting it also.

Can't someone just say: "I choose no target" when it is his attack or some such?

What happens if someone spends mana on a Flameblast spell, but the only other valid targets (other than the Mage casting it) are 2+ zones away? Must he attack himself? Surely that makes no sense... any Mage would just direct the attack into the next zone over, losing the mana and harming nothing. It's not like he lost control  of the spell... he just couldn't reach his intended target... no?

Similarly, it "makes sense" (even if the rules state otherwise) that the Mage using the Sledge doesn't lose control of it when attacking with it.

Should this be an errata in the Codex or somewhere else?
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Zuberi

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 07:20:29 AM »
You can't cast a Flameblast without a target at all, nor can I think of any reason you would want to. If your target moves or otherwise becomes illegal after you aim the spell at them, then the spell is cancelled, but you can't just choose to cast a spell aimed at nothing. Similarly, you can't choose to make an attack aimed at nothing, as far as I can tell, within the framework of the rules.

According to sweeping within the codex, it's not granting you the option of a second attack. It never says the word "may" or any other terms to indicate it is optional. Therefore, the second attack is necessary. You've already decided that you want to make both attacks whenever you declare that you are using a sweeping attack in the first place. Thus, you must finish making both attacks if at all possible, and having friendly creatures (including yourself) in the zone makes it possible.

As a side note with the Flameblast scenario, if somebody tries to cast Flameblast or some such and accidentally misreads the range as further than it actually is, then they are not required to hit themselves in the face with it when you point out their mistake and the lack of enemy targets within range. They can choose to simply not cast the spell, as per the rules on page 13 of the English Rulebook v3.

Thematically, I agree that it doesn't make much since that you would be required to hit yourself in the face with it. However, I have been unable to find anything in the rules that would support a decision not to use the second attack. It's just not worded in a way as to make it optional or to make friendly targets invalid. So, for now at least, if you want to use sweeping you have to be prepared to hit two targets even if that means hitting yourself. Unless I've missed something.