May 21, 2019, 06:36:25 PM

Author Topic: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone  (Read 17507 times)

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2014, 09:40:45 AM »
@Zuberi

Ok, I take the total opposite view:

Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

We are focused on the second attack here. The above wording implies that the second target has to be a valid target. I did include the whole write up for Sweeping and no where in it do I see that it is mandatory for me to target a second creature. Furthermore everywhere I looked in the Codex, the FAQ, and the Core rules the only adjective I ever saw before target or targeting was "may" with the explicit exception of Taunt. I the game the way the rules normally play, the mage may target in creature that is in range. If he chooses Target 1 but does not choose Target 2, (as he may or may not choose too) then the Sweeping trait would have no effect this round.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Maverick

  • Ambassador - Twin Cities MN
  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • I got a fever, and the only cure is Mage Wars!
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 09:54:40 AM »
Not a rules guru or anything. But reading what the rules state I interpret the second attack as mandatory. As the rules state that the mage is a valid attack target and the second attack of sweeping is not optional then you would have no choice but to direct it towards your mage in the absence of other targets. If it is not intended by the rules a clarification is needed in the FAQ as many of us interpret it this way. Personally I would just forgo using sweeping attacks in that scenario but it makes the underpowered War Sledge even worse.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I win Mage Wars!

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2014, 10:15:47 AM »
Where?
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 10:57:41 AM »
Okay, I'm going to agree with sIKE on this one. I'm chocking myself up to a total brain-fart on this issue. It basically breaks down to targeting options vs actual targets. It is obvious that there are other creatures available, such as yourself, that you could target, but if you don't select them, then they aren't actual targets. Therefore, the line in the sweeping definition about no different valid targets existing would apply, since you didn't create any other valid targets out of the options presented to you.

I will point out to sIKE that on page 22 of the rulebook though, it does say a target is required for an attack. You can't just attack nothing. This is what I was getting hung up on, but since we are okay with the second attack not occurring I now realize it is somewhat irrelevant.

Sweeping says you must make the second attack if you have a target. Attacking says that all attacks must have targets. Therefore, I was thinking you'd be forced to select a target and carry through with the attack, but that is faulty logic on my part. I apologize.

Maverick

  • Ambassador - Twin Cities MN
  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • I got a fever, and the only cure is Mage Wars!
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 12:29:50 PM »
Quote
Sweeping (Attack Trait)

 This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone. Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have Flying, the second target must also not have Flying.

If a creature uses a Sweeping attack that also has Reach, then the above restriction does not apply; the second target can be Flying or non-Flying, independent of the first target.
The Underline and Bold are my doings....

"After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone." This sentence says you have to declare a target after your first attack. This makes the act of declaring a target mandatory.

Your own creatures and mage are able to be targeted by an attack. So "If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." does not apply. This is due to your own controlled creatures and the mage itself in fact being a valid option for the attack.

 I doubt this is intended by design but it is what I read.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I win Mage Wars!

Kharhaz

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2107
  • Banana Stickers 7
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 01:06:20 PM »

Sweeping says you must make the second attack if you have a target. Attacking says that all attacks must have targets. Therefore, I was thinking you'd be forced to select a target and carry through with the attack, but that is faulty logic on my part. I apologize.

You are forced to follow through with the sweeping attack

Multiple Target Attacks, like sweep, are there own category on the attack procedure table. You go through steps 1 - 4 and 6 -8. On step 8 you must make another attack. It would be like deciding "I don't want to roll damage" in step 4, the second attack here, in sweeps case, is mandatory.

You then repeat step 1 and if there is no valid target, it is resolved as per normal.

the only stretch I can see in the rules is the wording on attacking yourself. You "may" even attack yourself could imply that you have the option to not allow attacks you make to treat the source as a legal target.  Would not prevent friendly fire but it does stop the hammer in mouth scenario

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 01:35:23 PM »
Friendly Attacks
Creatures may attack friendly creatures.

Once again no where do I find a rule stating that a mage HAS to target a friendly creature.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 02:47:39 PM »
Friendly Attacks
Creatures may attack friendly creatures.

Once again no where do I find a rule stating that a mage HAS to target a friendly creature.

"May" means that you are allowed to.

Since the 2nd attack is mandatory if you have a legal target (aka you may attack yourself),  you have to.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 02:49:09 PM »
Basically a Sweeping Attack is Zone Attack with limited amount of target. And just like Zone Attack, you can't decide to not attack yourself.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 03:55:09 PM »
I just don't see it after reading it multiple times. I do not see the word must or mandatoy anywhere in the codex for Sweeping. You start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object, if you choose not to target an object (friend or enemy) then there is not a different valid target for the second attack, and the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

This is a melee attack not spell that is being cast, an attack spell has to work through both cast spell and attack processes. You have to have a legal target to start both an attack and an attack spell. However with the Sweeping trait the second attack starts with the Declare Attack Step, which is when you choose a target, if you choose not to target an object the attack sequence ends and this trait would have no effect.

At this point I believe both sides have presented very strong and logical arguments with the data that we have on hand. We are arriving at different interpretations from the same data though and I think that it is time for a high power to give us guidance on the issue. 
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

DaveW

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 05:36:00 PM »
According to sweeping within the codex.... It never says the word "may" or any other terms to indicate it is optional. Therefore, the second attack is necessary.

I do not see anything in the Codex that says "must" either. Therefore the second attack is optional. (This is the same logic that you use... since it doesn't specify one way, it must be the other....)

It just says that you move on to the next attack, so I'm wondering why you can't just say "I'm done attacking."

In the case of Whirling Strike, the card specifically says "may" ... and finishes with the text "in the same manner as the sweeping trait." (Yes, I know that the sentence talks about making attacks one after the other in the same manner... but it is my contention that Whirling Strike is essentially the Sweeping trait in Incantation form, and that the "may" attack provision should be assumed by Sweeping as well.)

I feel that someone needs to indicate that attacks happen only by choice except in the case of mandatory actions. I felt that that was the intent of the rules, at least.
  • Favourite Mage: Asyra Priestess

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 05:38:57 PM »
I think we all agree on intent, the question is if the rules contravene the intent...
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 06:25:52 PM »
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 06:26:29 PM »
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Is this the intent?
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 09:39:45 PM »
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Is this the intent?




It is how the rules work.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage