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Author Topic: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone  (Read 18501 times)

jacksmack

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2014, 09:31:14 AM »

What was the final ruling to selesius and her sweeping attack?
Can she target 1 flying and 1 non flying unlike Adremelach?
Must the targets be in the same zone?

It's in the Faq.

"When a flying creature uses a sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have flying, the second target must also not have flying."

If the attack also has reach then the above restriction does not apply.

So reach is better than ranged in this case? or am I missing something?

it feels like this was added without taking ranged sweeps into account.

Kharhaz

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2014, 10:02:03 AM »

A Dwarf Kriegsbiel attacks a Mountain Gorilla in his zone as the first attack of his Sweeping attack. 8
The Mountain Gorilla reveals a Divine Intervention on itself, and teleports away (to the same or different zone).
That attack is canceled, and the Dwarf Kriegsbiel may then proceed to his second attack and choose a different
target in the same zone, if any are available. He may not choose the Mountain Gorilla again, even if it
teleported into the same zone, since Sweeping requires the second attack to target a different creature.

It says may, and nothing about targeting himself.

No.

When an attack is cancelled you no longer run through the steps. In that example when the DI moves the gorilla and the attack is canceled that entire action ends. Same thing with helm of fear, if the attack is canceled the controller can choose a new target, hit face, or end the attack sequence there.

Now if there is a mountain gorilla and an emerald tegu in your example. I have my dwarf use a sweeping attack and target the tegu first. Before that resolves I reveal DI, and move the gorilla, then the dwarf will hit himself in the face as the sweeping attack is never cancelled

as per the codex
Cancel
If a spell, attack, or effect is canceled, it stops and has no further effect
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 10:17:39 AM by Kharhaz »

sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2014, 10:45:32 AM »
Quote
Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.
So its late game I have my Highland Unicorn who after Upkeep has one Life left and large stack of Enchantments that I would love dearly love to not loose. The only other creature in the zone is Cervere, The Forest Shadow who has two Life left.  I am one zone away but my opponent has initiative the only thing I have left with range is you guessed it: Windstorm. Luckily it is Unavoidable but now I have to target Cervere and my Unicorn, Cervere lives and the Unicorn dies.

Thanks a lot Geverus Tnape at Slogwarts for not teaching me how to aim my sweeping spells so I don't have to target my friendly creatures but I can catch that stoopid flying golf ball! You would think that after a 1000 years of magic school they would teach this most basic of skills!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:33:39 AM by sIKE »
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Wildhorn

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2014, 11:45:38 AM »
Has anyone used sweeping for one enemy?

I would agree with sike, in a logical chain sweeping 2 attack is a must, but when choosing a friendly u have an option "may".

A Dwarf Kriegsbiel attacks a Mountain Gorilla in his zone as the first attack of his Sweeping attack. 8
The Mountain Gorilla reveals a Divine Intervention on itself, and teleports away (to the same or different zone).
That attack is canceled, and the Dwarf Kriegsbiel may then proceed to his second attack and choose a different
target in the same zone, if any are available. He may not choose the Mountain Gorilla again, even if it
teleported into the same zone, since Sweeping requires the second attack to target a different creature.

It says may, and nothing about targeting himself.

Definition of "may": expressing possibility/permission.

NOT "expression the choice of to or not to".

The attack require you to attack another target. And you have the possibility to attack a friendly target (aka your mage), so you are require to target it if it is the only target left.

Kharhaz

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2014, 11:49:15 AM »
Quote
Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.
So its late game I have my Highland Unicorn who after Upkeep has one Life left and large stack of Enchantments that I would love dearly love to not loose. The only other creature in the zone is Cervere, The Forest Shadow who has two Life left.  I am one zone away but my opponent has initiative the only thing I have left with range is you guessed it: Windstorm. Luckily it is Unavoidable but now I have to target Cervere and my Unicorn, Cervere lives and the Unicorn dies.

Thanks a lot Geverus Tnape at Slogwarts for not teaching me how to aim my sweeping spells so I don't have to target my friendly creatures but I can catch that stoopid flying golf ball! You would think that after a 1000 years of magic school they would teach this most basic of skills!

No different than only having a zone attack left

Zone attack targets and entire zone, a sweep attack targets two different creatures, double / triple strike target the same creature multiple times. While a bit silly logically, I agree, there are only a small percentage of times where this would be an issue. Sweeping attacks are generally less effective than the creatures quick action options. Selesius and war sledge are the current exceptions to that statement, and Selesius cannot target herself anyway. War Sledge loses the ability to single target daze.

Most other situations are moments where the player does it to themselves, no different than targeting a zone with friendly and enemy creatures with a zone attack. The above DI example is a once a game situation but can happen.

Mind control is also worth mentioning as the creature can attack an enemy creature and himself; which is a win win for the forcemaster.

Also something to note is if the sweeping creature does attack himself, it would also trigger his bloodthirsty  bonus dice trait if it had one.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 12:03:04 PM by Kharhaz »

Zuberi

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2014, 12:26:28 PM »
@jacksmack

A ranged sweeping attack can target both a flyer and a non-flyer as long as they are in the same zone. The only reason a melee attack cannot do this is because the creature has to give up flying to hit a non-flyer and thus is no longer able to attack a flyer afterwards. They also can not lose flying in the middle of their action, so they couldn't give it up after attacking a flyer first. Ranged attacks don't have to worry about whether the attacker is in the air or not. Both flyers and non-flyers are valid targets for the ranged attack, and thus sweeping can hit both.

It should also be noted that reach only works for non-flyers. A flying creature with reach can not hit another flying creature and then hit a non-flyer because they are then still in the air. However, it could give up flying to hit a non-flyer and then hit a flying creature because it would then be a non-flyer for the duration of the attack. Reach in the codex simply states it allows you to hit flying creatures. It does not allow a flying creature to hit a non-flyer without giving up the flying trait first.

Kharhaz

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2014, 12:41:20 PM »
@jacksmack

A ranged sweeping attack can target both a flyer and a non-flyer as long as they are in the same zone. The only reason a melee attack cannot do this is because the creature has to give up flying to hit a non-flyer and thus is no longer able to attack a flyer afterwards. They also can not lose flying in the middle of their action, so they couldn't give it up after attacking a flyer first. Ranged attacks don't have to worry about whether the attacker is in the air or not. Both flyers and non-flyers are valid targets for the ranged attack, and thus sweeping can hit both.


The FAQ as written applies to all sweeping attacks made by flying creatures, ranged or melee.

I agree that there should be another * added to allow ranged attacks to also exempt this rule (it is an issue derived from targeting which is legal for the ranged attack). However, as it stands only the reach trait allows you to bypass this rule.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 12:51:56 PM by Kharhaz »

Zuberi

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2014, 02:33:04 PM »
Quote from: Official Rules and Codex Supplement
Sweeping

A creature must be legally able to attack both targets with its Sweeping attack.

A creature cannot gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action. When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping Melee attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. If the first target does not have Flying, then the Flying creature will have to lose the flying trait to attack them, thus their second target must also be non-Flying.

For example, if a Flying creature with a Sweeping Melee attack makes its first attack against a Flying creature, it will not be able to make its second attack against a non-Flying creature (since it is in the middle of the attack action, so it canít lose Flying), or vice versa.

If a non-flying creature uses a Sweeping Melee attack that also has Reach it is legally able to attack Flying and non-Flying, and so it may target both Flying and non-Flying targets. Similarly, a Sweeping Ranged attack may target both Flying and non-Flying targets.

You may have an outdated copy of the FAQ. This is the total text for Sweeping in the FAQ on page 23 (with bolded emphasis from me). It clearly states that the whole issue is a targeting issue that only causes problems for Melee attacks. Ranged attacks are able to target both and so are able to be used against both. Also, reach only allows you to attack both if the attacker is non-flying (so a flyer would have to attack a non-flyer first if they want to benefit from Reach).

Kharhaz

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2014, 02:02:20 AM »
It would appear my copy of the FAQ is missing a sentence or two from that trait. I will need to find an updated copy

Shad0w

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2014, 10:15:03 PM »
Sweeping:
Attack requires you to attack another target after attacking the first target. You have the possibility to attack a friendly target (aka your mage), you are required to target that object if it is the only target left.

For example if you had a creature with Sweeping 3: If the controller used this attack. The creature would be required to attack 3 different targets even if two of the are friendly.
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sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2014, 10:21:51 PM »
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?
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Wildhorn

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2014, 06:36:23 AM »
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?

It is the simple logic reading of the current rules.

You think you have the option because you translate "may" to "you have to option to or not to" while what "may" means is "you can/it is allowed to".

sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2014, 10:11:01 AM »
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?

It is the simple logic reading of the current rules.

You think you have the option because you translate "may" to "you have to option to or not to" while what "may" means is "you can/it is allowed to".
Sorry if I deal with a lot of legalese and must and may mean something totally different to me. One is optional (may) and the other must (mandatory). I even think taking the legalese out of the picture they roughly still mean the same thing, one is optional (may) the other is not (must).

The reason I ask this of Shad0w, was since he is on the rules committee he is the font of finality when it comes to rules and I was wanting to know if this is how they are reading in-between the words now or this was how they were going to update the rule to read.

The main reason for my opinion is that it makes no reasonable amount of sense that my creature with the Sweeping trait could not pull up on the attack (or shoot it into space) in order not to hit a friendly.
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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2014, 11:33:17 AM »
I agree. All rules so far were making sense until now.  Well, except Lightning +X on heavy armored targets but this make sense at least in balance options.

Fact, that mighty Trokoth, leader of the Bloodwave nearly killed him self when he used full attack while defeating Paladin Siegfried is hardly acceptable :)...

But maybe its explaining the reasons why he died in Menace of Ruination. :(
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sIKE

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Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2014, 11:48:09 AM »
He fell in the Arena?  :o
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