July 15, 2019, 05:27:35 PM

Author Topic: The Promo Debate  (Read 9905 times)

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 05:45:38 AM »
Promo cards are by definition a restricted resource that not everybody has access to.

Every card is by definition a restricted ressource, because you need money to buy the expansion packs.
So your argument is not working.

And even if someone uses promocards and the opponent does not. It's still fair, because promocards are not unbalanced.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Wildhorn

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2014, 06:32:17 AM »
The Ballista is the only promo card, that could use some balancing. All other promo cards are fine and a (good) tournament should allow players to use them.
There is nothing unfair about it when a player, who has participated in several tournaments with promo rewards, has a greater card pool compared to a new player.

The storm staff too is not balanced.

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2014, 06:59:52 AM »
Yes, it's too weak. Why spending 7 Mana at the start of the game for an item, that probably gets dissolved before used once?!
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

jacksmack

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2014, 07:08:02 AM »
Every card is by definition a restricted ressource, because you need money to buy the expansion packs.
So your argument is not working.

And even if someone uses promocards and the opponent does not. It's still fair, because promocards are not unbalanced.

Promo cards are a money sink compared to the prices of the expansions when you look at the price per card.

Also the trouble (time and money) of getting sufficient the promos is not worth it to everyone.
I just want a battle of mage wars on equal terms.
And in case you forgot - everyone being on equal foot is one the foundations of Mage Wars.

Wildhorn

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2014, 07:13:39 AM »
Yes, it's too weak. Why spending 7 Mana at the start of the game for an item, that probably gets dissolved before used once?!

Why spend 6 mana on a chest armor that will get dissolved/corroded before it get used once?

That's a stupid comment.

A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.

And that staff is nothing weak. It increase the damage and the chance to stun you of any lightning. It is very powerful.

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 07:54:10 AM »
That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.

If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Ganpot

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 07:56:42 AM »
Even disregarding the (probably) broken Ballista, there are quite a few powerful promo cards. 
-Gravikor
-Circle of Light
-Plagued
-Altar of the Iron Guard
-Summoning Circle
-Altar of Peace
-Raincloud
-Mordok's Tome
-Temple High Guard

Each one of those cards is at least potentially powerful within a niche.  Some of them might even completely shake up the meta or make certain Mages less viable. 

I can speak from experience that they do not prove to be a problem in a prized tournament environment so long as you A: Announce their legality in advance and B: Make it known they can be borrowed from the venue.
That would be the only situation in which I could see promo cards being used fairly.  I personally don't think a handful of extra cards warrants that much effort, but if tournament organizers feel differently, I don't have a problem with it. 

jacksmack

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 08:02:19 AM »
That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.

If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.

You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify

You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff

I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.

Wildhorn

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 08:02:52 AM »
That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.

If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.

Its not because you didnt see something that make it not good. Charmania (the best player) used that "trick" as far as I know. And it is not really a trick where someone fall for it. It is just a "for an extra action I have 2 Nullify/Jinx". It deny Dissolve (or any quick spell with Jinx) to your opponent. Any good Wizard has a Jinx bomb setuped because it is very powerful to deny your opponent its actions when you decide to.

Wildhorn

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 08:04:31 AM »
That's a stupid comment.
A.wizard will have a nullify on him and another on a creature with a Transfusion to protect it. You won't dissolve it.

If you waste actions to build up such a nullify "trick", you have lost the game anyway against good opponents. In over 100 games on OCTGN i've never seen someone using this "trick" and cannot imagine how anyone could fall for that.

You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify

You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff

I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.

And you can't do that in 1 turn, giving me time yo set it up again.

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 08:13:09 AM »
-Gravikor
Great card to beat enemies, that only focus on flying creatures. And even when played, if does not mean the flyers are already dead. The mana cost seems ok to me.

-Circle of Light
Good card against unliving. There are already several Damage Barrier enchantments released, so this should not be unbalanced.

-Plagued
Mana intensive enchantment, that can evaded easily after beeing revealed (after dealt damage once).

-Altar of the Iron Guard

Cheap comjuration with very limited use, when there are conjurations or creatures spread all over the gameboard.

-Summoning Circle

Never seen it used on OCTGN ... probably for a reason. Could work once in a game with a Hydra but you can easily move away from that zone. Seems not overpoweredto me.

-Altar of Peace
Good Card, but harms yourself too ... looks like a different Suppression Orb.

-Raincloud
I was very excited about that card, when it came out. But i stopped using it, because the initial cost is too high. May help in some matchups, but not in all.

-Mordok's Tome
Not very useful for a Wizard, that can prepare two cards and always change his mind and attack with arcane zap anyway. Never seen it beeing used.

-Temple High Guard
This guy is not bad, but if i had the chance i would summon rather a Knight of Westlock (for offense) or a Guardian Angel (for defense)

I do not see overpowered cards here.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 08:19:06 AM »
You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify

You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff

I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.

Maybe, and what if i just kick your ass with melee, my creatures attack you, i just summon all my stuff with a spawnpoint and use my quickcast to do something unimportant you dont want to use your trick on?
So you wasted your actions and you do not get any benefit out of it. There is always a situation, where a trick might be useful, but there are always several other situations, where it's not.
But this is not the topic :)
Let's talk about Promo Cards.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Schwenkgott

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 08:30:55 AM »
Promo Card Overview:

Wall of Force   
Summoning Circle   
Wall of Poison Gas   
Vorpal Blade   
Temple High Guard   
Spiked Armor   
Ring of Healing   
Sandstorm
Pharaoh's Cheetah   
Raincloud   
Plagued   
Oscuda   
Spiked Buckler   
Staff of Storms   
Sunfire Burst   
Mountain Ram   
Mana Vampirism   
Lightning Strike   
Holy Strike   
Gloves of Skill   
Heart of Gravikor   
Hurl Meteorite   
Kumanjaran Leopard   
Joseph Trublood, High Cleric   
Gravikor   
Leviathan Scale Armor   
Gale Force Ring   
Flame Strike   
Fire Elemental   
Lightning Beetle   
Mordok's Tome   
Victorian Griffin   
Clear Mind   
Bloodwave Greatbow   
Critical Strike   
Chitin Armor   
Death's Head Scorpion   
Circle of Light   
Debilitate   
Bloodthirsty Strike   
Elfric's Life Ring   
Asto Vidatu, Angel Slayer   
Dragon's Breath   
Ballista   
Dragonclaw Wolverine   
Altar of the Iron Guard
Altar of Peace
Acid Blast
Windstorm
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Wildhorn

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 08:36:11 AM »
You mean *action*. Because he is spending 4 actions:
Storm
Nullify
transfusion
Nullify

You spend 3 actions:
1) Destroy nullify
2) avoid falling for the nullyfing trick (not sure how you will get around it - im looking forward to hear that but it will take an action regardless.)
3) dissolve the staff

I dont think coming 1 action behind = lose game.

Maybe, and what if i just kick your ass with melee, my creatures attack you, i just summon all my stuff with a spawnpoint and use my quickcast to do something unimportant you dont want to use your trick on?
So you wasted your actions and you do not get any benefit out of it. There is always a situation, where a trick might be useful, but there are always several other situations, where it's not.
But this is not the topic :)
Let's talk about Promo Cards.

Your creatures do nothing, they are all stuned by my +4 on yellow dice Chain Ligthning from the Staff of Storm.

Laddinfance

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Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 09:25:25 AM »
And Corrosive Orchid cannot be nullified. We can go back and forth on hypotheticals all day. At the end of the day there are two reasons why a promo card may not have been printed yet. First, it didn't fit thematically in a set when we were able to print it. Second, we are concerned about it's balance and want to look closely at it.

We're committed to printing all of the promo cards in sets, eventually. As for the question of balance, I am happy with the balance on most of our promo cards. That said, I'm happy to allow people to use promos in anything but a serious tournament. Yes, they're an x-factor, but on the whole I want people to be able to play with all the cool cards they have. Now tournaments are another story. That is meant to be a standardized format, and as such I generally would not allow them.

In my hometown, I helped organize a Breast Cancer Brawl for Warmachine/Hordes. This type of very casual charity event is exactly the type of event that I would allow promos. Now, personally I would require a donation.

At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.