April 05, 2020, 08:08:57 AM

Author Topic: Tinker Bells Angel  (Read 12433 times)

Charmyna

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2014, 11:26:16 AM »
Hi Charmyna, your book is very similar in strategy to my Druid - Predetor book.  I play a vampiress as my enchantment bearer instead of a guardian angel, and I skip the meditation amulet and Fellella.  I love Fellelle and wish she worked better but I think you are overpaying for her benefits.  Instead of a meditation amulet you could just be using your druid's main actions to cast a second enchantment.

The Efficacy of Fellella:
Fellella requires 2 enchants as a preemptive defense but she can play them on herself and she channels so lets say she costs 12+1+1 = 14 mana.  She doesn't start benefiting you until 3 rounds after she is summoned (she's busy protecting herself the first two rounds.)  Her benefit is to allow your mage to use their main action for something else, which we will say is worth about 3 mana since you can be attacking, meditating, or guarding.  Plus he channeling she is benefiting you 4 mana a round which means if you play her round 1 she was a net benefit on round 7.  Really I'd say break even round 7 because she cost you 2 channeling by delaying your tree.  This is not even considering the cost of meditation amulet which is 4 + an action, so delays her break even point by 2 more rounds.

I don't know about you but that is too late of a pay-off for me.  There is some benefit from action compression, that you can cast 3 spells in one turn which sometimes the burst is worthwhile, but I still don't feel it's worth it.  I recommend you try the book with turn 1: tree+enchanter's ring, turn 2: Angel+enchant.  I think it will be a much faster and even more powerful opening.

Angel vs Vampiress:
If you were facing a hugely enchanted monster creature, what would you dispel first Divine Protection+Cobra Reflexes or Vampirism+Bear Strength?  With modular add on enchantments you can customize your creature to the situation so the base creature starts to not matter, however the vampiress can reach a higher maximum strength and I'd say the ability to choose not to fly can be quite valuable because if the enemy tries to target your creature you can guard her with your druid.  Lastly Angel is innately defensive which is situational, but vampiress is aggressive which is always useful.  Bear Str is almost always one of the first 2 enchants I put on.

Their mana efficiency is roughly the same (within 2 mana), depending on how you value the vampiress' optional flying.  Math for the math inclined:

Angel+Bear Str+Vampirism + 1/2xRhino Hide+3/4xBull's Endurance = Vampire + 5/6xCobra Reflexes + Divine Protection + Eagle Wings. 

13+5+6+2+3.75 = 29.75 mana for monster angel, and 16+5.83+4+6 = 31.83 mana for monster Vampiress.  You could argue the vampiress deserves a discount because you don't need to fly 6 times in most games, usually twice is enough so her innate fly is more efficient then casting eagle wings.

P.S. I know you love low SP costs, but Akiro's favor is amazing on an enchanted monster creature.  You get to leave it facedown most of the time and only flip it after seeing the dice roll went sour, and it only cost 3 mana total.

Very interesting and useful thoughts! Thanks alot!
About Fellella: I agree that against ultra fast builds that are able to attack flying she might not be the best opening. With Mohktari, Enfeeble, Agony and Maim Wings it still might work though.
I dont understand why you think she breaks even in Round 7. I guess you factor in the Mana cost for revealing enchantments? Well if she dies (didnt happen to me yet) those enchantments can be moved to another creature. Hence I would say she breaks even alot earlier. You could argue that a Seeking Dispel will prevent moving the enchantments from Fellella, but usually i try to avoid having only one face down enchantment on Fellella so its not too easy to guess which is Transfusion.
In most of the games I played so far my opponent used a costly Spawnpoint. In such a situation Fellella is really worth it, because she will for sure benefit beyond break even before she dies!
Btw without Fellella often I wont be able to have multiple hidden enchants on Fellella/Guardian Angel which would make this build much more vulnurable against Purge Magic/Destroy Magic.

I think the Vampiress is a really nice idea! Its just what I value so much on the Angel is the defensive nature, which makes sure he and the enchants on him stay on the baord as long as possible! Its really nice that the defence, flying and divine protection cant be dispelled! Sure you can put all those enchants on the vampiress, but they all cost you 2 Spellpoints and can be dispelled. A Bear Strength/Bulls/Rhino on the Angel can be dispelled as well but it costs you only 1 Spellpoint, so I can include many copies of them easily whereas I doubt you will include more than two Divine Protection, Cobra Reflexes or Eagle Wings. As I already pointed out I am really spellpoint conservative, which often helps me to find a better answer than my opponent.
So what are the points for Vampiress? Vampirism! Well it costs me 4 spellpoint to cast that on my Angel, so that favors the Vampiress. Then again in most situations I dont need Vampirism to keep the Angel alive. A Regrowth or staying inside Mohktaris zone and his inherent healing and defensiveness, maybe also a Hand of bim-Shalla is enough. Often Vampirism doesnt help at all like if you really need to attack conjurations or non living targets or if you miss your attack due to a defence or daze. Hence I dont value Vampirism that much. So what about the Vampiress pseudo-flying? Well in some very specific situations I like that she is a ground unit during my opponents turn. For example for hindering his units. Well here the Vine Markers usually help. Another such situation would be if the Vampiress is in the same zone as an hostile archer, especially a Gorgon Archer. Actually in this situation I think I would really wish to have the Vampiress instead of the Angel. Then again if I attack a Gorgon Archer who is standing on top of a Gate to Voltari I would fear Devouring Jellies which will quickly corrode the Vampiress Armor.
Its also important to note that Tanglevine on Vampiress is nice to prevent her from using her pseudo-flying and that way she wont be able to use the charge from Lion Savagery whereas you cant cast Tanglevine on the Angel without spending another Action to remove his Flying first.
Additionally, I want to emphasize how useful it is to have the inherent Flying trait on the Angel because that keeps him out of danger most of the time! Like I had plenty of situations in which the opponent had much more dices than me because he focused on ground units. Just he couldnt use most of them because I outplayed him with Vine Markers, Tanglevine etc. If the Vampiress wants to deliver her damage she has to stay at the front but since she is a ground unit she can die easily if the opponent has more dice than me. Sure, you can cast Eagle Wings on her, but having an inherent Flying trait increases the chances of surviving cosiderably compared to Eagle Wings!
I guess in the end its a matter of play style. Vampiress might be better if you prefer playing aggressively. I prefer focusing on control and conservation though. Its more important to me that the Angel survives every burst damage than having two more dice each round via the vampiress basic attack.

About Akiros Favor: You are totally right. Its a really good enchant on a creature with many dices. Mhh i guess I should use it even if it costs 3 SP.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 11:47:48 AM by Charmyna »

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2014, 12:08:43 PM »
Interesting points and I will defiantly have to try out the angel version.  Maybe even including both depending on my opponent.
Quote
I don't understand why you think she breaks even in Round 7. I guess you factor in the Mana cost for revealing enchantments?
I am not counting revealing enchantments, but you do have to cast two defensive enchants on her "just in case" so I am saying you don't get any benefit from her until round 4 because her extra action is spent defending herself on round 2 and 3.  On turn 4 she starts benefiting you but that benefit only adds up to more then her cost around round 7 or 8.

I agree it is a matter of play style, aggressive vs defensive.  I favor aggressive because it means you don't need to have answers for your opponent, they need to have answers for you.

Enchanter's wardstone is sufficient to protect against purge or destroy magic, transfusion nullify is overkill.  However I have thought of one angle of attack that you need transfusion to protect against.  If your opponent can land arcane corruption and banish on your angel (or my vampiress) then it will die before it reenters the arena taking all it's enchantments with it.

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2014, 12:41:41 PM »
@charmanya, if you really need your Angel on the ground, you could always Maim Wings it and when no more needed, shift/transfuse the enchantment.

Charmyna

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2014, 01:52:11 PM »
Interesting points and I will defiantly have to try out the angel version.  Maybe even including both depending on my opponent.
Quote
I don't understand why you think she breaks even in Round 7. I guess you factor in the Mana cost for revealing enchantments?
I am not counting revealing enchantments, but you do have to cast two defensive enchants on her "just in case" so I am saying you don't get any benefit from her until round 4 because her extra action is spent defending herself on round 2 and 3.  On turn 4 she starts benefiting you but that benefit only adds up to more then her cost around round 7 or 8.

I agree it is a matter of play style, aggressive vs defensive.  I favor aggressive because it means you don't need to have answers for your opponent, they need to have answers for you.

Enchanter's wardstone is sufficient to protect against purge or destroy magic, transfusion nullify is overkill.  However I have thought of one angle of attack that you need transfusion to protect against.  If your opponent can land arcane corruption and banish on your angel (or my vampiress) then it will die before it reenters the arena taking all it's enchantments with it.

Yeah it might be nice to have both the Angel and the Vampiress in the book. That is actually a combination I used in a book I posted hear over a year ago^^ (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12847.0).
You are right about being aggressive forces your opponent to have answers for you, but then again playing defensive gives you the advantage that you often got more time to prepare for the battle. For example if your opponent uses a spawnpoint other than Vine Tree his creatures have to move to you so in the heat of the battle they are not available asap. Additionally, the defender can bank his creatures actions via guarding, the aggressor cant. So if the defender finds the right answer he usually has an advantage which in my games often is the difference between winning and loosing.

Arcane corruption is a very cool combo to kill such a heavily enchanted creature^^. And yeah in that case im glad if there is a Transfusion on my creature.

Wardstone vs Transfusion:
The point of Transfusion is that it does not only help against Purge/Destroy Magic but also against the creature dying. It also helps to use the enchants twice or even thrice a round in case u really need the damage! And there are nice combos with Transfusion like the one using Rust I explained in the main post. Transfusion is also nice to save a costly enchant like Enfeeble. Btw you can never be sure the wardstone survives. So with only one Wardstone often I would be too afraid that the opponent destroys it and uses his QC right after that to Purge Magic. Additionally 1-2 Wardstones can be countered by Mana Prism (he would still need to save alot of mana to Purge Magic though).
So for all these reasons I really like having 4-5 Transfusion in this deck. In many games 3-4 is enough though.

@charmanya, if you really need your Angel on the ground, you could always Maim Wings it and when no more needed, shift/transfuse the enchantment.

That is a neat idea and i might actually do that the next time i face multiple Gorgons ;).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 01:54:23 PM by Charmyna »

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2014, 04:23:05 PM »
At the risk of going slightly off topic: I'm really thinking a lot these days about why Guardian Angel is so cheap to cast. Inherent flying, in my opinion, is one of the best traits in the game. Comparing the GA to other flyers in the 12 mana region, namely Gray Angel, Blood Demon, Gargoyle Sentry or Screech Harpy (which i did not test), it seems to be superior in (almost) every situation, having Aegis, Defense (plus she can heal herself). I think that's a really pity, since it reduces diversity a lot.

On topic: Could you think of another creature that can act as a enchantment carrier for this book?

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2014, 06:43:17 PM »
Steelclaw Grizzly  :)

(I´ve seen a Charmyna video, where he cast two Grizzlies - one with Eagleclaw Wings and a Enchanment Transfusion on it)

Note to self: I need to try Enchanment Transfusion in practice
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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2014, 08:35:26 PM »
Quote
The standard opening is:

Round 1:
Mage:
Fellella
Mediation Amulet

Round 2:
Mage:
Vine Tree (treebond)
Enchanters Ring
Fellella:
Rhino Hide on Fellella

Round 3:
Mage:
Bulls Endurance on Fellella
Guardian Angel
Fellella:
Bear Strength on Angel. If your opponent saved alot of mana and might be throwing Fireballs at your Tree or Flameblasts at Fellella soon you might not need Bear Strength on the Angel. In that case an early Rhino Hide on the Angel or Divine Protection on Fellella might be better.

I tried a variant of this spellbook this week-end. It is fucking amazingly powerful!

But I also noticed your opening doesn't work.

Round 1: (19 mana)
Mage:
Fellella (7)
Mediation Amulet (3)

Round 2: (12 mana)
Mage:
Vine Tree (treebond) (3)
Enchanters Ring (1)
Fellella:
Rhino Hide on Fellella (0)

Round 3: (10 mana)
Mage:
Bulls Endurance on Fellella (9)
Guardian Angel (missing 3 mana)
Fellella:
Bear Strength on Angel. (missing 1 mana)

So this opening is missing 4 mana.


Wildhorn

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2014, 08:56:20 PM »
I used something similar to this:

Faery AngelDruid
Conjuration1 x  Enchanter's Wardstone1 x  Tanglevine1 x  Hand of Bim-ShallaCreature1 x  Guardian Angel1 x  Fellella, Pixie Familiar1 x  Kralathor, The Devourer1 x  Thunderift FalconEnchantment2 x  Falcon Precision3 x  Nullify1 x  Maim Wings2 x  Lion Savagery1 x  Rust3 x  Agony1 x  Akiro's Favor3 x  Rhino Hide4 x  Bear Strength2 x  Bull Endurance2 x  Cheetah Speed1 x  Divine Protection6 x  Enchantment Transfusion1 x  Enfeeble1 x  Poisoned Blood2 x  Healing Charm1 x  Barkskin2 x  Mongoose Agility2 x  RegrowthEquipment1 x  Wand of Healing1 x  Leather Boots1 x  Enchanter's Ring2 x  Bearskin1 x  Meditation Amulet1 x  Mage Wand1 x  Leather GlovesIncantation1 x  Teleport2 x  Purify3 x  Dissolve1 x  Rouse the Beast1 x  Seeking Dispel1 x  Burst of Thorns1 x  Defend1 x  Shift Enchantment4 x  Dispel
Total cost: 120 pts

I modified it after my 2 games (vs ATW and vs FM). I had less Enchantment Transfusion and I had 2 vine creatures. But they were too much vunerable to worth it. A buffed FM (8 + 4 dices) can one shot them even if they are loaded with enchantments. Flying creatures is the key here.
I kept Kralator (even if it died as soon as he came out) because I think it is a nice anti-swarm creature.
I also dropped the Vine Tree, barely used it and the Moktari tree is cheaper, sturdier, save 3-4 Regrowth and opponent often find it useless to waste actions to take down a tree that doesn't generate mana.
I have 2 Purify because Poisoned Blood and Weak tokens are the thing that hurt the most this spellbook.
Agony are amazing on their own, but they are also very nice Dispel baits. If opponent (try to) dispel the 3 of them, he is most likely out of Dispel or about to.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:59:45 PM by Wildhorn »

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2014, 08:30:42 PM »
Awesome use of fella. I've been trying to get her into a good book forever. I'll copy the book, but i dont have enough bear strength/rhino hides and i dont like using proxies. So i will pout. I've been avoiding reading this post because tinker bell, angel, and no mention of druid. needs more druid in the title.

Without more vines, I'd definitely cut the vine tree and stick to mohtari. you could free up 4 spellpoints if you get rid of 2 regens as well. either that or give vine tree another tanglevine or something. I guess you are keen on the extra vine markers though...

Unless you have piles of mana, i think you undervalue Brace Yourself. it has no activation cost so you are saving mana. Rhino hide is better if you are letting them attack fella multiple turns in a row, but I'm guessing you try to prevent that from happening.

Also, not even one Shift Enchantment? I would use it to get the transfused enchantments back to their target.(like transfusing maim wings off of adremalech to prevent a dispel, then shifting it back to adremalech). Or its cheaper(mana and SP) if you want to immediately move one enchantment(like a friendly rust off of yourself)
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Coshade

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2014, 10:51:08 PM »
Hey Charmyna
Love the build! I especially like all the tricks you added in that can be combos in other decks as well. I hope you don't mind me asking some questions that may seem obvious.

Do you have an ideal armor pont you like to get too? I am looking at the leather boots and gloves and am unsure of when you are going to be able to cast it. Do you find time to cast it in the later end of the game? How many turns do you usually see when playing this build?

Is there a reason you put in 6 dissolves! It seems like a lot but I might be missing something really obvious. Also the 4 dispels seem on the high side. I am wondering if you took out some for more nullifys it would help defend your enchantments more, especially with 5 enchantment transfusions.

I think this stems from my previous question but I am curious on the lack of attack spells. I know you said you have 7 dice from the angel. I am wondering if you need more rusts if you lack the Acid Balls. How do you deal with high armor things? I guess the piercing just doesn't seem like enough to me (you have played this a lot so you know what you're talking about).

I was wondering what you thought about heals? I know you have healing charm and regrowth and that combos with saving mana. Is the heal spell not worth it?

Again awesome build man. Really thought out.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 10:55:16 PM by Coshade »
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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2014, 07:56:29 AM »
Charmanya is a big fan of dissolve and dispel. I am pretty sure he is sad to not have 6 dispel ;)

Acid Ball are not needed if you get ride of the equipment/enchantment that grant armor.

For healing, charms and regrowth/barkskin really does the job. If you need a full heal with this spellbook, it means you are losing the game.

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2014, 02:06:34 PM »
@Coshade: I don't know if Charmyna is active at the moment. If you want to get a glimpse of how his general games go, I'd recommend his Twitch.tv channel. There are plenty of full games with commentary.

You will notice that lots of games (which also happens in my local meta) come down to dispell and dissolve wars. 4 of both - dispell and dissolve - is the minimum amount I have in EVERY book. The druid gets cheap dissolves, that is why it's easy to implement 6.

Let me also say somethink about the other points you asked, allthough I don't have the competence of Charmyna :)

Quote
Do you have an ideal armor pont you like to get too? I am looking at the leather boots and gloves and am unsure of when you are going to be able to cast it. Do you find time to cast it in the later end of the game? How many turns do you usually see when playing this build?

The natural way to get armor in this book is via enchantments, since you can move them around and you can use felella to cast them. I'm quite sure that an early Rhino Hide is the way to go before casting boots and gloves.

Quote
I am wondering if you took out some for more nullifys it would help defend your enchantments more, especially with 5 enchantment transfusions.

Well, one aspect of this book is certainly to trade actions efficiently. If the enemy invests in destroying you enchantments, you trade your familiars actions vs their mages, which is fine. Also, transfusion can be used to save enchantments (and again, it is an action felella can do for you).

Quote
How do you deal with high armor things? I guess the piercing just doesn't seem like enough to me.....

The times I played this book (style), I went for the mage only. And you have plenty stuff to get rid of armor on the mage (dissolve x6, dispell x 4).

Quote
I was wondering what you thought about heals? I know you have healing charm and regrowth and that combos with saving mana. Is the heal spell not worth it?

You can transfer health via treebond, you have armor and regeneration via enchantments and you can cast healing charm via felella or with enchanters ring discount from the mage... :)
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echephron

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2015, 02:21:44 PM »
Here is the version I played. To be honest, I haven't played it in a while and only played it a few times. If it lacks in competitiveness, it makes up for that with managability/variety and fun(at least for me).

It has fewer copies of core spells, so you might be able to make it in real life. Its still hard to horde 3 rhinos and bears though, but an heavy nature enchantment book needs this stuff. I never fall into the Dispel/Dissolve war, nor does that sound like any fun, so fewer of those. Mohtari, because vine tree/meditation makes no sense when you only have 4 vine spells. Brace yourself on/with Fellella seems like a no-brainer. I'm surprised I only have 2.

The basic strategy is still the same. Don't put out mohtari until you need him.

I don't recall why i have a mage wand, but I'm sure you'll find some use for it.

My TinkerbellA Druid Spellbookbuilt by the OCTGN SBB
Attack2 x Acid BallConjuration1 x Hand of Bim-Shalla1 x Tanglevine1 x Enchanter's Wardstone1 x Mohktari, Great Tree of Life1 x Stranglevine1 x Corrosive OrchidCreature1 x Fellella, Pixie Familiar1 x Kralathor, The Devourer1 x Raptor Vine1 x Vine Snapper1 x Guardian Angel1 x Moonglow FaerieEnchantment3 x Rhino Hide2 x Nullify2 x Falcon Precision3 x Bear Strength4 x Enchantment Transfusion1 x Agony1 x Divine Protection2 x Lion Savagery2 x Bull Endurance1 x Healing Charm2 x Mongoose Agility1 x Barkskin2 x Rust2 x Cheetah Speed1 x Decoy2 x Brace Yourself1 x Akiro's Favor1 x Divine MightEquipment1 x Leather Gloves1 x Bearskin1 x Mage Wand1 x Wand of Healing1 x Enchanter's Ring1 x Meditation Amulet1 x Vinewhip StaffIncantation1 x Seeking Dispel1 x Teleport1 x Purify1 x Rouse the Beast2 x Defend2 x Dispel1 x Purge Magic1 x Battle Fury1 x Shift Enchantment1 x Dissolve
Total cost: 120 pts
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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2015, 12:45:52 PM »
I used your openings and Fellala died in Round 3.

Rhino hide was useless due to only crit damage.
Jhoktary came with Cervere, buffed with unavoidable and wings. one attack and a Bear Strength on it and Hand of bim shala killed her outright with two attacks.
I admit the rolls were pretty lucky (4 dice and 6 crit dmg). Still, after she died I had 80% of my deck left with  Enchantmets. I feel there are just too many. Since Cervere is Elusive Guardian Angel doesnt work either. I think the deck needs some more choices and options.

Zil

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Re: Tinker Bells Angel
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2015, 01:35:59 PM »
I used your openings and Fellala died in Round 3.

Rhino hide was useless due to only crit damage.
Jhoktary came with Cervere, buffed with unavoidable and wings. one attack and a Bear Strength on it and Hand of bim shala killed her outright with two attacks.
I admit the rolls were pretty lucky (4 dice and 6 crit dmg). Still, after she died I had 80% of my deck left with  Enchantmets. I feel there are just too many. Since Cervere is Elusive Guardian Angel doesnt work either. I think the deck needs some more choices and options.

Zil

I would have dispelled the wings asap so no second attack, maybe followed with a tanglevine to reinforce that. I also prefer brace yourself to rhino hide, not that it would have mattered in this case.

Hows she summon 15 mana Cervere, The Forest Shadow, get 2 enchantments of 10 mana on it, have it active and in your starting zone turn 2(fellella should have been in your starting zone)? Not enough actions or mana for all of that.

15cere, 4rouse, 6wings, 3force push uses all her mana, but will allow her to attack fellella in your starting zone. No falcon precision though, not to metion bears strength or hand of bim shala.

And if fellella died in a later turn, she should have had more defensive buffs like bulls endurance. a 10life, 2 regen, 4 armor, 6+ infinite defense Fellella, Pixie Familiar with a Healing Charm will survive that.

A well supported Tarok, the Skyhunter could be a problem though.
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