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Author Topic: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?  (Read 3351 times)

Biblofilter

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How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« on: October 10, 2014, 09:24:09 AM »
I think i might have been revealing some of my enchantments to soon. So can you wait with revealing after the Attack step 3 (roll dice) and before step 4 (Damage Effects) and have the enchantment take effect before the damage/effect are applied? Or do you have to reveal at any other step to effect the events?

Spell steps:                                      Attack steps:

1. Cast spell                                      1. Declare attack 
2. Counter spell                                 2. Avoid attack
3. Resolve spell                                 3. Roll Dice   
     > then resolve attack                    4. Damage and Effects
                                                        5. Additional strikes 
                                                        6. Damage Barrier
                                                        7. Counter Strike
                                                        8. Attack ends

Akiro's Favor
Bear Strength
Brace Yourself
Bull Endurance
Eagle Wings
Enchantment Transfusion
Hawkeye
Healing Charm
Maim Wings
Rhino Hide
Rust
Standard Bearer
Vampirism
There might be other enchantment spells im in doubt of when to reveal them, to get them to Work at their best

Divine Intervention comes to mind









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Laddinfance

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2014, 09:31:25 AM »
Bear Strength needs to be revealed before the Roll Dice step. If it's not then it can't modify the number of dice you roll.
Eagle Wings can be revealed in combat, but as you can't gain or lose flying while you're being attacked it is generally a bad play.
Hawkeye needs to be revealed befor the Roll Dice step as well.
Maim Wings falls in the same category as Eagle Wings.

Zuberi

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2014, 03:39:25 PM »
You can reveal enchantments between any steps or phases in the game, including between Rolling Dice and Applying Damage. However, as Laddinfance pointed out, you have to know when it's too late to apply their effects. Figure out when an effect would actually be used or calculated into things, and then reveal the enchantment immediately before that step. For the enchantments you listed:

Akiro's Favor: You have to reveal it before the Declare Attack step if you want to possibly use it for a Daze condition, otherwise you need to reveal it before Apply Damage and Effects. (I could be wrong about this one, but that's my gut feeling right now).

Bear Strength: You must reveal it before the Roll Dice step.

Brace Yourself: You must reveal it before Apply Damage and Effects.

Bull Endurance: You must reveal it before Apply Damage and Effects if you want to use it to avoid death of the creature. Fatal damage would kill the creature before you could reveal otherwise.

Eagle Wings: You must reveal it before the Declare Attack step, otherwise it won't take effect until after the attack resolves.

Enchantment Transfusion: This depends more on what you are transferring than anything else.

Hawkeye: You must reveal it before the Roll Dice step.

Healing Charm: You must reveal it before Apply Damage and Effects if you want to use it to avoid death of the creature. Fatal damage would kill the creature before you could reveal otherwise.

Maim Wings: You must reveal it before the Declare Attack step, otherwise it won't take effect until after the attack resolves.

Rhino Hide: You must reveal before Apply Damage and Effects.

Rust: You must reveal before Apply Damage and Effects.

Standard Bearer: You must reveal before the Roll Dice step to benefit from the Melee +1, or before the Apply Damage and Effects to benefit from the Armor +1

Vampirism: You must reveal before the Apply Damage and Effects step.

DaveW

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 04:13:45 PM »
Akiro's Favor: You have to reveal it before the Declare Attack step if you want to possibly use it for a Daze condition, otherwise you need to reveal it before Apply Damage and Effects. (I could be wrong about this one, but that's my gut feeling right now).

Thanks for going through all of these. I wonder about Akiro's Favor though. If you wait until between the Roll Dice and Damage and Effects step, then you won't get to go back to the Roll Dice step again, will you? Is that what the card lets you do... roll dice outside the Roll Dice step? It doesn't really say, and I can see it either way.
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jacksmack

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2014, 05:45:00 PM »
you can reveal after the dice are rolled but before damage is applied.

Akiros favour is not repeating the dice roll step, it simply just lets you roll dice. Just like healing charm can roll dice in between the very same steps.

If you wish to have a second chance with a daze roll then akiros must be revealed already because once the daze roll fails the attack is over.

BoomFrog

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2014, 06:02:38 PM »
I'll point out one tricky one that is often missed: Enfeeble and Chains of Agony must be revealed before the creatures move action is declared.  So generally you flip these just after they choose the creature to act with (they flip the action marker but haven't declared their action yet).

Mage Bane can be flipped after they declare what they are casting.  I don't recall when the technically last possible step would be.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 06:04:35 PM by BoomFrog »

jacksmack

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2014, 06:28:36 PM »
magebane would be after step 2 - counter spell step.

Enfeeble can be revealed AFTER the creature takes a move action. And then the creature wont be able to attack, guard or move again in the new zone.

Zuberi

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 07:01:24 PM »
jacksmack is correct on Magebane and Enfeeble. I also agree with his interpretation of Akiro's Favor, which is why my initial comment was that it had to be revealed before Apply Damage and Effects. I don't believe there are any rules currently that state a "re-roll" has to occur during the same step as the initial roll, so it's not really a repeat roll like many people may assume. Instead, the "re-roll" is it's own separate roll that simply replaces the one that previously occurred and does not have to occur within the same step as the original.

This is really only important with rolling attack dice because they have a pause between when the dice are rolled and when the results are applied. For all other dice rolls, such as Daze, you'd have to already be able to re-roll during the same step as the initial roll because otherwise the effects would immediately take affect and could not be changed by any subsequent re-rolling.

Wildhorn

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2014, 07:32:01 PM »
Is not the official rule about Magebane requires that it is revealed BEFORE a spell is Cast (Step 1) since the spell description says "... casts and resolves ..."?

BoomFrog

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2014, 11:01:57 PM »
This came up before although I couldn't find it with a quick search. 
Quote
Slow (Object Trait)
This creature is very slow. If this creature takes a move action, its
Action Phase immediately ends.
It does not get to take a quick
action after moving. If a Slow creature gains the Fast trait, both
traits are canceled out.
  If the creature gains slow after it takes a move action then the bolded section is not triggered so it's turn doesn't end and it can still take a quick action.  If you were using enfeeble to negate fast you could do it after the two moves as a surprise I believe.

Biblofilter

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2014, 02:53:17 AM »
Txs everyone!

I think i got i now :)

Enchantment Transfusion Used after the Roll Dice step:

Lets say my Sosruko, Ferret Companion has an Enchantment Transfusion and a Healing Charm on him. He gets attacked and fails his defence, after the Roll Dice step (5 damage) i would only be able to reveal and use the Healing Charm but could only cure any damage taken before this attack. If Sosruko would be killed by the attack, i could still reveal Enchantment Transfusion to transfer the Healing Charm to another creature just before he dies. If i had another creature in range also with an Enchantment Transfusion with Bull Endurance i could transfer that, reveal it and get 4 ekstra life before the damage would be applied, thereby saving my little guy.

Eagle Wings used after the declare attack step:

If a non-flying creature attacks, i could reveal an Eagle Wings on the defender, then the attack is cancelled.

From Core rulebook Step 1 Declare Attack (page 23):

Remember:If a flying crature attacks a non-Flying object, it loses flying until the end of the attack. See "Flying" on page 15.
If later during the attack you discover that your target is no longer legal (for example, if it has been Pushed or Teleported out of range), the attack is canceled.

1) This seems to indicate that the Eagle Wings "trick" would Work vs a flying attacker as well?

2) If the attack is cancelled, the attacker does´nt get to do anything else?

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Zuberi

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2014, 06:54:23 AM »
@Boomfrog
Quote from: Official Rules and Codex Supplement, page 22
Slow
A creature checks whether or not it can take an additional action at the moment it would declare the action. If it acquires the Slow trait before it takes the action, it may not be able to take the action.

Giving the creature slow after they take a move action does prevent them from taking an additional action.

@Wildhorn
There have been extensive discussions about this before, but currently the Official Rules and Codex Supplement says the following:
Quote from: Official Rules and Codex Supplement, page 40
Magebane
Magebane deals its damage after the spell that triggered it has been resolved. For example, when this creature casts a spell, you could reveal this at the end of the Counter Spell Step, and then at the end of Resolve Spell Step, after the spell resolves, this creature will take 1 direct damage.

Thus, currently, revealing it after the Counter Spell Step does cause the creature to take damage.

@Biblofilter
You could use Enchantment Transfusion before damage is Applied in step 4 to move the Healing Charm to a safe target, yes. Alternatively, you could use Enchantment transfusion before damage is applied to move Bull's Endurance and save Sosruko.

If a Non-flying creature attacks, and you reveal Eagle Wings, your creature will NOT gain flying until the attack has ended. If you read the rules on page 15 that are referenced in your quote, it specifies that a creature can not gain flying during an attack as well as being unable to lose it. Thus, you will not avoid the attack, and it will not be cancelled.

The flying trick only works if you reveal Eagle Wings before they declare their attack. Creature actions basically work as follows:
1) Activate the Creature
2) You may move the creature
3) You may take an action, but you can only take a full action if you did not move.

Therefore, you could reveal it after they activate the creature but before they do anything with it. You could also reveal it after they move into your zone but before they declare an attack. Both of those options would result in the trickiness you desire. However, as soon as they declare their attack, Eagle Wings will have no affect on it. Thus, this trick will obviously never work against a Flying Creature.

If an attack is cancelled for a different reason though, you are correct in that they do not get their action back. Their action is simply forfeit.

jacksmack

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Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2014, 02:09:54 PM »
magebane can be revealed after step 2 and the 1 damage is applied.

its in the FAQ.