August 22, 2019, 07:22:03 AM

Author Topic: the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes  (Read 11682 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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I just came up with a really awesome forcemaster build that relies on invisible stalker, only to find out that it's completely hosed by ethereal attack spells. The only, and I mean ONLY way to stop IS from either being a useless mana sink that can never attack, or from being annihilated by arcane zaps in the final qc phase if it ever dares to attack anything, is Fumble on the enemy mage. It's expensive, and it's only a stop-gap measure that falls apart the moment your opponent casts a nullify, jinx or seeking dispel.

Are there any plans to make a counter to the ethereal attack trait in the near future? Like say, an enchantment that makes a creatures' ethereal attacks lose the ethereal trait? Or maybe spells that can reconstruct incorporeal objects? Or something like healing charm, but for nonliving creatures? Or an enchantment that gives an incorporeal creature the skeleton subtype for an upkeep cost or something?

If there are plans for an ethereal counter, how soon can we expect them? Will they be available before summer?

Thanks!

Edit: I just realized I originally put this in the wrong section of the forums by mistake. I deleted it and reposted it here. Sorry about that.
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qaz_azaran

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I dunno man, it seems like it'd be too powerful if ethereal creatures could avoid any and all damage.  It's pretty powerful as it is since 95% of creatures can't deal ethereal damage.

sdougla2

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That's one of my major problems with the Invisible Stalker. Particularly against the Wizard, IS is incredibly vulnerable to ethereal attack spells. I also don't think invisibility does as much to protect the IS as you might think against a creature with a good ethereal attack due to the Forcemaster's generally low creature count. Combine that with the high cost and upkeep, and I just don't have a lot of use for IS.
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V10lentray

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I don't get why you are complaining about an attack that works the same on everyone.

Normally Incorporeal creatures are awesome, and all of a sudden this guy is terrible because of one type of an attack? Not many things in the game have an Ethereal attack. So he's obviously not bad.

I would love to watch someone play a reverse attack when the invisible stalker attacks, to me that would be hilarious, watching it kill itself.
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Mystery

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we should get something like block for incorporeals, simply. and in particular its only the wizard with the cheap ethereal attack, all the lightning spells or so cost 5+ mana too and are not expected to kill the stalker.


Sailor Vulcan

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the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2014, 08:58:39 AM »
What about jet stream, and light attacks such as pillar of light?

Invisible stalker is probably pretty good against non wizards who aren't expecting it and don't already have any ethereal attack spells. After losing against it once people will start including ethereal attack spells f they haven't already, making IS useless. IS only has 7 life and can't gain armor.  It only takes one pillar of light to beat it at the minimum. If IS attacks even once that's enough for an opening to kill it with pillar of light. There's no good reason to spend 15 mana on a level 5 creature that is likely to only get one maybe two useful actions in the majority of games.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:00:15 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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qaz_azaran

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Even if it can't gain armor it can gain life. 

You could still put Bull's Endurance and a Healing Charm on it.  You could use Cobra Reflexes to give it a Defense.  Maybe beef it up with Bear's Strength so it hits harder on that first surprise attack.


sIKE

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All of these can only target living creatures....

The IS in this situation is good to lock up an action on the opponent. I haven't played him (FM) in while but I always kept there in the zone with the mage and if he used up all of his actions then bam. Otherwise the mage has to do something otherwise.....
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Wildhorn

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Even if it can't gain armor it can gain life. 

You could still put Bull's Endurance and a Healing Charm on it.  You could use Cobra Reflexes to give it a Defense.  Maybe beef it up with Bear's Strength so it hits harder on that first surprise attack.

It is Non-Living. None of these can be cast on it.

Wildhorn

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If your only strategy in your book rely on 1 creature, than your spellbook is badly built.

Invisible Stalker is already very powerful. He bypass any guards, and else he prevent your opponent to use his quickcast during his turn (and if he use it then you are free to attack).

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2014, 12:57:37 PM »

If your only strategy in your book rely on 1 creature, than your spellbook is badly built.

Um excuse me what? Counterexample: Buddy builds DO work, and they are not all poorly built. Ever seen aggro priestess with vampire?

Having only one win condition would mean a poorly built spellbook. Having only one overarching strategy doesn't.

In any case, the purpose of the invisible stalker is to put a lot of early pressure on the opponent and deal extra dice so as to free up my mage to set up a bit so she can tank.
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qaz_azaran

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Re: the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2014, 01:04:39 PM »
Still, when it attacks it only loses invisible until the end of the round.  It seems like all you really need to do to keep it relatively safe is only attack with it if you can be the last one acting that round.  If you're worried about enemy mages only use it if they've already cast their spells for the round. 

You can use it all game long and never get hit so long as you're not too aggressive.

Sailor Vulcan

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the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2014, 01:15:09 PM »
Still, when it attacks it only loses invisible until the end of the round.  It seems like all you really need to do to keep it relatively safe is only attack with it if you can be the last one acting that round.  If you're worried about enemy mages only use it if they've already cast their spells for the round. 

You can use it all game long and never get hit so long as you're not too aggressive.

So you're saying that I should spend 15 mana on a level 5 creature wth an upkeep cost to pay every round, and then I'm only supposed to use it sparingly (if at all when I'm facing a wizard). That's such a huge investment for something I'm not using much anyways. They could easily just save their quickcast action until the final qc phase each round, and I won't be able to risk attacking the mage AT ALL in the early game without my IS getting killed or nearly killed by a pillar of light or arcane zap.
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qaz_azaran

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Re: the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2014, 02:04:24 PM »
I suppose they could, but I honestly don't see it being that big a handicap.  (I will admit that it may be my lack of experience talking here.)  There is something to be said strategically for making them hold onto a card and their quickcast action for the possibility of you attacking.  If you don't attack and they're focused on stopping your IS they basically waste any potential for casting a 2nd spell.  If they use their 2nd spell, hit them.

Given that the IS can attack 95% of creatures without fear so long as the mage isn't right there expecting it it seems to me that it's still a pretty powerful card. 

I do see where you're coming from that it'd be a little too easy to 1 hit kill an expensive creature and I agree that I would like to see some cards that can empower and heal non-living creatures such as the IS; but, I don't think the card is broken or useless as is.


sdougla2

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Re: the problem with Invisible stalker and question about possible future fixes
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2014, 02:33:55 PM »
@qaz_azaran

but they can still use their qc, they just have to wait to use it until later. If you attack with the Invisible Stalker, they can attack it in the final qc phase, and if you opt not to, they can cast something else in the final qc phase (particularly the Wizard). Waiting to use their qc is often worth negating a 5 dice attack. Even if they end up not casting another spell when your Invisible Stalker doesn't attack, you spent resources and they didn't.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Invisible Stalker is useless, but it has a horrifically bad matchup, it doesn't synergize that well with the rest of the Forcemaster's options (it would work better for a mage with a strong swarm option so that it could at least be the last creature to act), and it's too expensive for how fragile it is.
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