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Author Topic: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury  (Read 1686 times)

Santar

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Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« on: October 27, 2017, 12:07:08 PM »
Hi mages!
If my Water Elemental has Charge +2 by Ballad of Courage and moves after 1st attack and makes the 2nd by BattleFury, will it has this bonus again?

zot

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 12:28:25 PM »
Yes the charge bonus would apply since it is not treated as melee +x which is what does not get to be counted twice. However, not having the card in front of me, not sure if water elemental is a legal target for the ballad.

RomeoXero

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 02:07:08 PM »
Yeah it is. It doesn't have psycic immunity so it can be mind controlled or ballad of courage can be used.
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jacksmack

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 03:16:41 PM »
IIRC:

The rules for Charge says 'immediately after'.

Which does not really happen here. My guess is you do not get the bonus second time since too many things happen after the move such as damage barrier, counter strike multiple strike etc.

farkas1

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 03:18:54 PM »
Oh nice combo forgot about the charge triggers again if pushed and a battle fury.

Edit yea there does seem to be conflicting rules here. Bc battle fury also says the extra attack acts as the same attack action. So I don't think this combo works.  :-\
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 03:23:32 PM by farkas1 »
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exid

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2017, 05:01:21 AM »
there's a move, so the first attack gets the rage bonus (even if it's the second attack of the attack action)

Santar

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 05:16:31 AM »
The problem is: charge bonus gets to the next melee attack after moving action. And the questing is: moving by Elemental ability counts as moving action or not?

exid

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 06:53:58 AM »
ah... right... i understand.
the elemental "moves" but it's no "move action", so charge doesn't work, by the words.

Santar

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 11:16:58 AM »
Yes. But in rules "move" uses only in move action. Snatch, Force Push and overs use "push" keyword. So it may works. We need Zuberi here))

exid

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 11:27:03 AM »
Yes. But in rules "move" uses only in move action.

nop:
a push moves! (codex)

Santar

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2017, 02:19:02 PM »
So Chains of Agony doesn't work with moving by this ability.

Zuberi

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2017, 02:46:05 PM »
Despite my reputation, I want to remind people that I am not an official answer when it comes to the rules, so what follows is simply my opinion. I do not think it should count as a Move Action.

This mostly stems from a fear, that I know AW shares, of stacking bonuses to the pool size of attack dice. If we count it as a Move Action, you'd get to apply Charge bonuses multiple times, and we could end up with a similar situation that inspired the Battle Fury and Hand of Bimshalla erratas 4 years ago. I don't think Arcane Wonders would risk this.

To back this up I could cite what other people have, in that the card never mentions "move action" but merely "move". It is true that in several places in the official documents they use a plain English definition of the word "move" to simply mean "change position." However, this is admittedly a weak argument as there are also examples where they use the word "move" as shorthand to mean a "move action." It is typically easy to tell what they mean in the official documents based on context, but we lack such context on this card.

So, in the end, this is just my opinion. Neither side really has more justification than the other. But I caution those advocating for it to count as a move action to pause and consider whether you're thinking in the game's best interest or just trying to abuse a loop hole, which may or may not exist.

jacksmack

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2017, 05:53:59 PM »
From the codex:
Charge +X
Creature gains +X attack dice for its very next melee attack, if it makes that
attack immediately after it takes a move action, and moves at least 1 zone.


IMO:
There are 2 reasons why it does not work

1)
It's not taking a move action.


2)
Its not making the attack immediately after it is moved as we are still in the first attack sequence.




Santar

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 04:36:24 AM »
Thanks for answers.

In my opinion after attack the Elemental moves by nhimself, so logicaly Charge should works. But it doesn't clear as in over nice combo, so lets decide that this move isn't an move action and doesn't trigger other effects.

exid

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Re: Water Elemental + Charge + BattleFury
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 07:19:32 AM »
it should be clarified in the next supplement!