December 16, 2017, 11:56:36 PM

Author Topic: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion  (Read 5092 times)

theasaris

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2017, 03:41:37 AM »
Sorry for bringing this thread back, but has this ever been fully answered?

I have had a related question come up recently: If Chant of Rage is moved with Enchantment Transfusion, what is the latest point in time for it to move in order to affect the creature's current action (during/after creature movement, before/after declaring an attack, or perhaps even right before the Roll Dice step)?

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 700
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2017, 07:28:39 AM »
in order to make it move you must change befor it declares the movement and to make it attack befor it declares attack (or befor it moves away if it is in the same zone at the begining of its action!)

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2017, 08:27:31 AM »
in order to make it move you must change befor it declares the movement and to make it attack befor it declares attack (or befor it moves away if it is in the same zone at the begining of its action!)

Incorrect.  In order to use Chant of Rage you must reveal it and have it attached to the target before it activates since you are affecting its entire action phase.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 984
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2017, 08:36:06 AM »
Incorrect.  In order to use Chant of Rage you must reveal it and have it attached to the target before it activates since you are affecting its entire action phase.

This does not make sense.

(it's already revealed on another creature) I would assume that if it's enchantment transfused before its choosing an action then it would have to follow the rules for this card. IE attack and if not possible the move closer.

theasaris

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 09:14:26 AM »
in order to make it move you must change befor it declares the movement and to make it attack befor it declares attack (or befor it moves away if it is in the same zone at the begining of its action!)

Incorrect.  In order to use Chant of Rage you must reveal it and have it attached to the target before it activates since you are affecting its entire action phase.

I believe the complication here is the fact that CoR is already revealed on another creature. I looked through similar cards which usually cannot be revealed during an action, that might cause some strange effects when used with Enchantment Transfusion:

Turn to Stone
Chant of Rage
Blur (what happens if it is transferred after an attack is declared against a target at range 2?)
Charm
Mind Control -> The card specifically says "cannot be moved to a new target"
Slumber
Song of Love

Perhaps we do need a general rule as suggested by echephron in this thread's opening post along the lines of "Enchantment Transfusion cannot move revealed enchantments which could not be revealed at that moment" ?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 09:16:22 AM by theasaris »

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2017, 10:14:57 AM »
What we really need to do is burn all copies of Enchantment Transfusion and wipe the memory of it off the face of the earth.

Barring that, I do believe it is important to keep in mind the intention of the cards being transfused.  I agree that if you cannot reveal something at the time when you are transfusing it will have no effect on whatever it is you are transfusing it to.  Chant of Rage cannot be revealed after a creature has flipped its marker therefore even if you do transfuse at that point it has no effect on the current activation of that creature.

Therefore, I say if you want the rage to affect another creature (which makes you a huge jerk :P) you must transfuse it before that creature activates.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 984
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2017, 11:24:20 AM »
Puddin... the situation arises when the CoR is flipped up on another creature. So there is no reveal restrictions for CoR as its already face up.
ET does not have any restrictions besides the regular rules for when enchantments can be revealed.

This mean it can transferred at any given time (between steps), and then it will be in effect of the new creature.

This means you could let the enemy walk 1 zone, and then reveal ET -> CoR  on active creature so you force his quick action to do as CoR commands.

Zuberi

  • Acolyte of the Dice Gods
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2412
  • Banana Stickers 52
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2017, 12:12:16 PM »
I think Chant of Rage is a lot less problematic, as it doesn't affect actions in progress. Puddnhead has a good point with Rules as Intended. Clearly the spell isn't intended to affect a creature at all after it has been activated. However, rules as written, this is how it would work:

Mandatory Actions are checked for each time you declare an action. So the latest you could transfuse Chant of Rage and have an effect would be before they've stated what they plan on doing. Once they say they're moving, attacking, guarding, or whatever, then Chant of Rage can not affect that action that is in progress at all. So, basically you'd want to transfuse it immediately after they activate, OR (if their first action is to move) immediately after they move and before they've declared another quick action. In the latter situation, you wouldn't affect their initial move, but you would affect their quick action, forcing them to abide by the chant.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 700
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2017, 08:56:15 AM »
in order to make it move you must change befor it declares the movement and to make it attack befor it declares attack (or befor it moves away if it is in the same zone at the begining of its action!)

I think Chant of Rage is a lot less problematic, as it doesn't affect actions in progress. Puddnhead has a good point with Rules as Intended. Clearly the spell isn't intended to affect a creature at all after it has been activated. However, rules as written, this is how it would work:

Mandatory Actions are checked for each time you declare an action. So the latest you could transfuse Chant of Rage and have an effect would be before they've stated what they plan on doing. Once they say they're moving, attacking, guarding, or whatever, then Chant of Rage can not affect that action that is in progress at all. So, basically you'd want to transfuse it immediately after they activate, OR (if their first action is to move) immediately after they move and before they've declared another quick action. In the latter situation, you wouldn't affect their initial move, but you would affect their quick action, forcing them to abide by the chant.

is it not the same?

theasaris

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2017, 08:00:08 AM »
I think Chant of Rage is a lot less problematic, as it doesn't affect actions in progress. Puddnhead has a good point with Rules as Intended. Clearly the spell isn't intended to affect a creature at all after it has been activated. However, rules as written, this is how it would work:

Mandatory Actions are checked for each time you declare an action. So the latest you could transfuse Chant of Rage and have an effect would be before they've stated what they plan on doing. Once they say they're moving, attacking, guarding, or whatever, then Chant of Rage can not affect that action that is in progress at all. So, basically you'd want to transfuse it immediately after they activate, OR (if their first action is to move) immediately after they move and before they've declared another quick action. In the latter situation, you wouldn't affect their initial move, but you would affect their quick action, forcing them to abide by the chant.

Ok, thank you, Zuberi, but what about the other cases that have nothing to do with mandatory actions?

- Turn to Stone
- Blur (what happens if it is transferred after an attack is declared against a target at range 2?)
- Charm / Song of Love (no effect if transferred after the attack has been declared?)
- Slumber


What effect would these cards have if transferred during a creature's activation?

Beldin

  • The Craziest
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 589
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 04:36:26 PM »
Personally I have looked outside the game for what could be an official ruling in this game. I looked to M:TG to see if it had a rule that could shine some logic to Mage Wars. I found the following:

Quote from: M:TG Comprehensive Rules
506.4a Once a creature has been declared as an attacking or blocking creature, spells or abilities that would have kept that creature from attacking or blocking donít remove the creature from combat.

We can lend this to Mage Wars as once a creature is declared as an attacker it is within the combat rules and thus follows the steps of combat. Incapacitating it should have no effect until it is out of combat again. The last time that Turn to Stone can stop a creature attacking this turn is holding priority before it activates or holding priority after it moves and still has a quick action to use.

This is the same as revealing Enfeeble after the Pay Costs phase of casting a spell. You are closing the barn door once the horse has bolted.

Zuberi

  • Acolyte of the Dice Gods
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2412
  • Banana Stickers 52
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2017, 10:00:20 PM »
Completely different and incompatible systems there, Beldin. Actions in Mage Wars most definitely can be affected and even stopped mid process. There's no question about whether or not the action CAN be interrupted. The question is specifically whether or not Incapacitate interrupts it.

Edit: More generally, the question is whether or not the wording of "can not take x action" will affect an action in progress. Which does put charm/song of love into question as well.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 10:05:13 PM by Zuberi »

Beldin

  • The Craziest
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 589
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2017, 02:22:52 AM »
Ok I am always ready to be wrong, and be corrected. It is how we learn.  I have come in half way through this thread. I do have a side question, but lets get this sorted first. :)

My point is if a "can not take x action" effect is on a creature, no matter how it appeared there, at the beginning of an action then it negates said action. If it is placed then it negates actions past the step it interrupts, referencing the negation of additional strikes in combat for an incapacitate gained due to an effect dice effect. Not effects the card generates due to previous steps within the action, before "can not take x action" effect was applied.

Kaarin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2017, 03:12:49 AM »
I don't remember any thread about this so I will ask this here as it's related and can help with ruling this.
If creature uses sweeping attack and first target stuns the attacker with counterstrike can the attacker make another attack? If not then it's clear that incapacitated can break an action.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
OCTGN: Wstrzasniety (UTC+2)

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Turn to Stone and Enchantment Transfusion
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2017, 08:14:45 AM »
Completely different and incompatible systems there, Beldin. Actions in Mage Wars most definitely can be affected and even stopped mid process. There's no question about whether or not the action CAN be interrupted. The question is specifically whether or not Incapacitate interrupts it.

Edit: More generally, the question is whether or not the wording of "can not take x action" will affect an action in progress. Which does put charm/song of love into question as well.
This discussion seems related to the ruling that the Flying trait cannot be gained during an Attack action. This was a specific ruling for a specific case and a similar clarification may be needed for Incapacitated.

However, in the case of Incapacitated (either by Stun or Turn to Stone or something else) this effect can be gained by a creature during an Attack action. The rules clearly allow this since a Stun effect is possible in the Damage & Effects step and the Damage & Effects step of a Damage Barrier or Counterstrike step. All of which occur within a single attack action of the Active creature.

Revealing enchantments at the end of other steps in an action results in the effects happening at different steps in the attack action, but doesn't change the current rules which allow the effect to occur DURING the action. The general rule is that the history cannot be changed by revealing an enchantment so in the Attack action example the attack took place and if the Roll Dice step took place, then the Damage and Effects step and following steps would still occur. The creature would apply the Incapacitated effects to any future steps in that action. So a target that becomes Incapacitated from Turn to Stone at the end of the Roll Dice step would receive Armor +6, but the active creature would not be effected until the Additional Strikes step or possibly the Damage & Effects step of the target's Damage Barrier attack.

The wording "can not take x action" I would assume applies at the activation point of a creature when the action choice must be declared. Receiving this effect after that point in the current activation would not effect the remaining steps in the action unless there was a further repeat of that action as in the case of Additional Strikes during an Attack action. However, an official ruling for this interaction would be nice to either validate or modify our assumption of how it works.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 08:18:06 AM by wtcannonjr »
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin