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Author Topic: Forcemaster questions  (Read 6958 times)

iNano78

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Forcemaster questions
« on: March 03, 2015, 11:03:32 AM »
Had a couple questions come up regarding some Forcemaster card interactions that we couldn't firmly resolve via a quick forum/Google search:

1) A Forcemaster has a Forcefield up with 1 or more tokens on it.  The Forcemaster attacks a creature with a damage barrier (e.g. Circle of Lightning). During the damage barrier step, does the barrier's "unavoidable" attack get canceled by removing a Forcefield token?

2) An invisible Invisible Stalker walks into a bar zone with a facedown Teleport Trap. (A) Does the Teleport Trap flip up? (We assumed yes, since an enemy creature entered the zone). (B) Does the invisible Invisible Stalker get teleported away by the trap? (Not sure if the trap "targets" the creature that triggered it or not, and since invisible creatures can't be targeted...)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 11:12:53 AM by iNano78 »
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ACG

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 11:09:28 AM »
Had a couple questions come up regarding some Forcemaster card interactions that we couldn't firmly resolve via a quick forum/Google search:

1) A Forcemaster has a Forcefield up with 1 or more tokens on it.  The Forcemaster attacks a creature with a damage barrier (e.g. Circle of Lightning). During the damage barrier step, does the barrier's "unavoidable" attack get canceled by removing a Forcefield token?

2) An invisible Invisible Stalker walks into a bar zone with a facedown Teleport Trap. (A) Does the Teleport Trap flip up? (We assumed yes, since an enemy creature entered the zone). (B) Does the invisible Invisible Stalker get teleported away by the trap? (Not sure if the trap "targets" the creature that triggered it or not, and since invisible creatures can't be targeted...)

1) Yes.

2A) Yes. The trap does not target the creature, it just activates when the creature enters the zone.

2B) Yes.

Zuberi

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 01:02:53 PM »
ACG is absolutely correct. Forcefield works even against unavoidable attacks like Damage Barriers, and the Teleport Trap does not need to target the creature so it does work against Invisible creatures just fine.

Zuberi

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 01:12:41 PM »
For further detail, notice that on Forcefield it says the prevention occurs before the Avoid Attack Step, which is when all Defenses occur. It also never refers to itself as a Defense. Therefore, the Unavoidable trait, which allows an attack to bypass Defenses, has no effect on it. For absolute certainty though, you can also look up Forcefield on page 36 of the Rules Supplement and it tells you that it works on Unavoidable attacks there.

For Teleport Trap you just have to pay attention to the fact that it never uses the word "target" when referencing the creature. That word is very important on spells and you only have to target something when it is present (or if the something is in the target bar). If the word is not present, then targeting is not required. You'll also notice that it does not mention "target" when referring to the the "zone of your choice" either (clarified on page 48 of the rules supplement), so you don't need line of sight to where you send the creature to. You could easily send the critter to the other side of a wall and really mess with him. Possibly even wall him in completely.

iNano78

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 02:02:32 PM »
For further detail, notice that on Forcefield it says the prevention occurs before the Avoid Attack Step, which is when all Defenses occur. It also never refers to itself as a Defense. Therefore, the Unavoidable trait, which allows an attack to bypass Defenses, has no effect on it. For absolute certainty though, you can also look up Forcefield on page 36 of the Rules Supplement and it tells you that it works on Unavoidable attacks there.

That's how we played it. The "unavoidable" part wasn't what tripped us up - that's clearly explained in the rules and FAQ/Codex. What led us to question it is that a damage barrier triggers at a particular point in the attack sequence (step 6) and we weren't sure if the barrier's attack has its own full Attack sequence (beginning with declaring target and having its own avoid attack step, etc) or not. Now we know

For Teleport Trap you just have to pay attention to the fact that it never uses the word "target" when referencing the creature. That word is very important on spells and you only have to target something when it is present (or if the something is in the target bar). If the word is not present, then targeting is not required. You'll also notice that it does not mention "target" when referring to the the "zone of your choice" either (clarified on page 48 of the rules supplement), so you don't need line of sight to where you send the creature to. You could easily send the critter to the other side of a wall and really mess with him. Possibly even wall him in completely.

That's what we thought, but couldn't find it confirmed anywhere. Thanks.
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sdougla2

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 02:50:46 PM »
I'm not convinced by your arguments about the interaction between a damage barrier and Forcefield. Unavoidable is a bit of a red herring because the fact that it is unavoidable is irrelevant (you don't even go through the avoid attack step for a damage barrier attack, so even if it wasn't unavoidable you couldn't use defenses against it), it's just there so that new players are more likely to play it correctly, though it makes people think that you can remove Block/Reverse Attack with a damage barrier, so it's not ideal. Since you don't have an avoid attack step, I'm not convinced that the Forcefield's before the avoid attack step ability should trigger.
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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 03:21:04 PM »
Looking at the rulebook explanation of damage barrier:

Damage barriers are a special type of attack, and
are neither melee nor ranged attacks. They only
have 2 steps to follow when attacking: 1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. They will not trigger
another damage barrier attack or a counterstrike.

It appears you are right. The damage barrier should ignore the Forcefield.

iNano78

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 04:12:20 PM »
Looking at the rulebook explanation of damage barrier:

Damage barriers are a special type of attack, and
are neither melee nor ranged attacks. They only
have 2 steps to follow when attacking: 1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. They will not trigger
another damage barrier attack or a counterstrike.

It appears you are right. The damage barrier should ignore the Forcefield.

Ok. Hmmm.  So we played it wrong after all. Now we know for next time.
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Zuberi

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 04:53:21 PM »
I apologize for focusing on the Unavoidable trait. This question is a bit more nuanced than that, however I still maintain that the Forcefield would cancel the Damage Barrier. There's no reason to think it wouldn't cancel it except for the fact that the Damage Barrier skips the Avoid Attack Step. However, Forcefield doesn't happen during the Avoid Attack Step. It happens in between the Declare Attack step and the Avoid Attack step, which makes it kind of special.

There is no reason to think that the Damage Barrier bypasses the Forcefield just because it skips the first two combat steps. Since the Forcefield is used outside of the normal combat steps, it could very easily occur before the Roll Dice Step still yet. It would be similar to Daze, which says that if you skip steps you still roll for the effect at the beginning of the attack.

Also, before anyone asks, Daze does not affect Damage Barriers because the barrier itself is making the attack, not the creature. You can't Daze a Damage Barrier currently.

Zuberi

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2015, 04:54:44 PM »
Just remove the Forcefield token before you skip the Avoid Attack Step, in otherwords.

Sailor Vulcan

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Forcemaster questions
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 06:17:30 PM »
I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:19:30 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 06:35:46 PM »
I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.

I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes.

Zuberi

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 06:53:41 PM »
I think he meant damage barriers. I agree this should get a mention in the rules supplement also, but I don't think it goes against the rules as written since the forcefield triggers outside of those steps, there is no place that says damage barrier skips it. Skipping steps that don't involve the forcefield does not mean you skip the forcefield, and lacking anything saying to skip it (especially after hearing the design intention) it would not be skipped.

Laddinfance

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 07:04:05 PM »
Wow, I was thinkn' damage barrier even as I typed "counterstrikes"... wow long day. I meant Damage Barrier earlier.

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Re: Forcemaster questions
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 07:05:22 PM »
I think this needs official clarification, just in case. If we're going by rules as written instead of rules as intended, and the rules state that damage barriers only have those two steps, then Forcefield would not remove a token against damage barriers.

I was afraid you'd say that. Well, when we were making FvW we wanted Forcefield to always work as long as it had a token. So, until I can confirm with Bryan otherwise, Forcefield works against counterstrikes.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14813.0

Has this changed?
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