May 19, 2019, 03:47:20 PM

Author Topic: Stranglevine  (Read 6112 times)

Zuberi

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2015, 10:43:43 PM »
I would like to reiterate that I am very opposed to the aforementioned interpretation and do not think it is correct, but barring an official ruling it is a valid interpretation. Personally I think that changes to the variable have their own individual time stamps, meaning they are affected by finite life. But if other people want to play it as bypassing the finite life trait, I can't say they are definitively wrong, just that I believe them to be.

Sike did mention errata as an option as well though. So any way you look at it, he's not really wrong and his interpretation does make thematic sense.

exid

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2015, 01:07:41 AM »
with finite life you "can't gain life", but allready gained life stays.
it seems logical that you keep your 2x life gained before the finite life but that the new counters don't affect the vine's life and only make damage to the target (here there's no more logic with the vine... but it's a secondary problem).

and...

when you destroy the deathlock... all the counters are still on the card so it gains all the pv it missed?
that's strange but seems right.
what about a bull endurance, can you put this enchantment on a finite life creature and it will affect it when the creature looses finite life?

Zuberi

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2015, 02:37:40 AM »
Indeed, that is how Bull Endurance works, and how I would currently interpret the Stranglevine. It all depends on how we decide to handle the changing variable though with regards to time stamps. Here is my original post discussing the possibilities.

Option 1 basically erases the past, allowing Finite Life to cancel all of the Life gained, past and future.
Option 2 is like a historical revisionist, rewriting the past and increasing a trait that already exists without the game registering any changes happening.
Option 3 seems the most likely to me. By having a separate time stamp for each change in the variable, we're able to keep past gains while preventing future ones, which is how Finite Life tends to function.

Also, to apologize for the confusion, although sIKE was advocating a similar effect in the end as Option 2, he was advocating a completely different mechanical route to get there by suggesting we errata the card to use the Innate Life trait instead. Which, I can definitely see merit in his suggestion, but barring errata the only interpretations I can come up with for the current card are the three mentioned and only the last one actually makes sense to me. If the others make sense to you though, I can't say with any authority that your wrong, only that the other two options seem silly to me personally.

exid

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2015, 03:27:42 AM »
for me your 1. is false: finite life doesn't erase past gains.
if i understand your 2., it would gain life being finite life: false.
when all other options are impossible, the last one bla-bla-bla, so your 3. is my answer.

could we have an offcial statement?

jacksmack

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2015, 04:35:46 AM »
What i believe:
Deathlock will not stop stranglevine from gaining life.

Stranglevine only gains its life once - when its summoned. Just like a creature which is also allowed to be summoned with its life despite a death lock in play, because the effect of deathlock takes place after its summoned.

Stranglevines life is at all times 6+2*X.
While X will change every upkeep stranglevine does not gain life every upkeep, its total life is instead changed due to the '2*X' it gained when it was summoned.

This is representing something that is growing and becoming stronger similar to the growth tokens, rather than healing wounds, or regerating or even stealing life. And apparantly deathlock does not limit the former.

Zuberi

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2015, 05:18:09 AM »
What i believe:
Deathlock will not stop stranglevine from gaining life.

Stranglevine only gains its life once - when its summoned. Just like a creature which is also allowed to be summoned with its life despite a death lock in play, because the effect of deathlock takes place after its summoned.

Stranglevines life is at all times 6+2*X.
While X will change every upkeep stranglevine does not gain life every upkeep, its total life is instead changed due to the '2*X' it gained when it was summoned.

This is representing something that is growing and becoming stronger similar to the growth tokens, rather than healing wounds, or regerating or even stealing life. And apparantly deathlock does not limit the former.

This is a wonderful description and thematic explanation for option 2 that I mentioned, proving that my preferred explanation is not the only one that makes sense to people. This really needs an official ruling. That's the only way to reach consensus.

exid

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2015, 06:03:44 AM »
What i believe:
Deathlock will not stop stranglevine from gaining life.

Stranglevine only gains its life once - when its summoned. Just like a creature which is also allowed to be summoned with its life despite a death lock in play, because the effect of deathlock takes place after its summoned.

Stranglevines life is at all times 6+2*X.
While X will change every upkeep stranglevine does not gain life every upkeep, its total life is instead changed due to the '2*X' it gained when it was summoned.

This is representing something that is growing and becoming stronger similar to the growth tokens, rather than healing wounds, or regerating or even stealing life. And apparantly deathlock does not limit the former.

aha!
but, shouldn't be the vines life 6+2x? the life is 6 and it GAINS 2x, so i still think... we need an official statement!

jacksmack

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2015, 07:30:44 AM »
aha!
but, shouldn't be the vines life 6+2x? the life is 6 and it GAINS 2x, so i still think... we need an official statement!

It gains 2*X When its summoned which is before its affected by deathlock.

Just because X changes it does mean it *Gain* anything anymore. Its life is merely adjusted (increased) but the time that it actually 'gained' this variable life effect is still when it was summoned.

DaveW

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2015, 08:09:24 AM »
Under the third option, I can imagine some measure of difficulty in remembering what the life actually is for a Stranglevine if it gained Finite Life. You have a certain number of markers on it, but you may wonder how many of those markers actually count in increasing its life total.
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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2015, 09:05:56 AM »
Under the third option, I can imagine some measure of difficulty in remembering what the life actually is for a Stranglevine if it gained Finite Life. You have a certain number of markers on it, but you may wonder how many of those markers actually count in increasing its life total.

I like this rationale for changing the trait to "Innate Life + 2X".

Keep it simple during game play.
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Laddinfance

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2015, 07:06:25 PM »
The intention during design was that Finite life would stop future life gain, but not past life gain. Unfortuneatly, I do not remember the reason why off the top of my head. But I remember the conversations about finite life and the vine. For rules purposes the best way to treat it is that when it gains a crush counter it is actively gaining 2 life, which the deathlock stops. I'll be looking into this guy more, and talking to bryan when he gets back.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Stranglevine
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2016, 09:37:01 PM »
this issue never got completely resolved as far as i can tell. the card text was never altered, just ruled to work differently than it says it does on the card. did Bryan ever respond?

edit: nvm i understand the card text now and it's correct.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 09:39:15 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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