July 21, 2019, 12:58:57 PM

Author Topic: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?  (Read 6709 times)

ACG

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Force Orb and Force Sword state that they are "not affected by conditions". However, Restrained and Incapacitated (examples on the cards) are not really conditions in the same way that Daze is, which makes the scope a little confusing. I found nothing in the rules supplement, so hopefully somebody can clarify here: are these affected by cards that give +X to defense rolls?

For instance, would these be affected by Defense Ring?

Wildhorn

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 11:35:21 PM »
yes Defense Ring grants its bonus

Zuberi

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 05:16:30 AM »
I think Defense Ring should work, but I can't really defend it at the moment. ACG is correct that those enchantments are very vague on what can affect them and what can't. Incapacitated is listed in the Codex as an Effect and Restrained is an Object Trait. Neither of them are Conditions. Perhaps I am missing something though. I haven't been to bed yet.

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 07:12:07 AM »
I assumed these two operated similarly to an autonomous spell. I.e. they were force-based spells with effects independent of the object they were attached to. The only relationship was the attachment which let the spell move with the object from zone to zone.

so effects that happen to the object don't impact these enchantments and the would still provide a defense even if the object was restrained, incapacitated, etc.

My two cents...
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Borg

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 08:43:23 AM »
Force Orb and Force Sword are enchantments with the subtype "Defense".
And Defense Ring allows you to add +1 to any defense roll the mage makes.
That makes it all pretty clear imo. EVERY defense roll that that mage makes gets a bonus +1 to the roll.

You could reverse the question though and ask, if Force Orb and Force Sword were not helped by Defense Ring what cards would be aided by it and why ? What would be the difference ?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 08:45:49 AM by Borg »
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Zuberi

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 10:34:20 AM »
I assumed these two operated similarly to an autonomous spell. I.e. they were force-based spells with effects independent of the object they were attached to. The only relationship was the attachment which let the spell move with the object from zone to zone.

so effects that happen to the object don't impact these enchantments and the would still provide a defense even if the object was restrained, incapacitated, etc.

My two cents...

If they were Autonomous it would be a simple question, however they are not. They are clearly worded in such a way as to be giving the creature a Defense which is then a part of it as much as any Defense printed directly on the creature card. This new Defense is special because it's not affected by Conditions. It then lists Incapacitate, Restrained, and Daze as example conditions, however two of those are not actually defined as Conditions in the rules and if they don't affect the defense then it is unclear what else it may be immune to as well.

The only thing that those three things have in common is that they are persistent effects, which could be said about the Defense Ring as well. So, while Borg is correct that it is clear that Defense Ring provides a +1 to every Defense of the Mage, it is not clear whether these particular Defesnes can legally benefit from it because we're not sure if this persistent +1 is considered a "Condition" by the Enchantments. It's definitely not defined as a Condition, but the Enchantments seem to have a broader definition than the rest of the game.

I think the default assumption though is to go as strictly by the card as possible and count Incapacitate and Restrained as the only non-conditions the defense is immune to since they are specifically mentioned. Do not try to interpret them as examples of some broader immunity. While if this is the correct meaning of the card it leaves me wishing that it had been worded clearer, doing anything else would be utter guess work.

ACG

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 11:13:09 AM »
I think we need an official ruling on this.

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 11:16:54 AM »
Defense ring works.

I think defense ring shouldn't work, except writing an errata would be annoying. The reason is because it is basically autonomous if that trait had existed back then.

I still think defense ring should work with autonomous, but thats another story.
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exid

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2016, 11:13:30 AM »
I bring this one up: what doesn't affect force orb and force sword?

RomeoXero

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2016, 01:13:51 PM »
Daze stun and incapacitated don't affect force sword and force orb. That's about it
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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2016, 02:11:23 PM »
I'm getting flashbacks to the "Does Stun prevent Block?" thread.
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exid

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2016, 12:31:21 AM »
Daze stun and incapacitated don't affect force sword and force orb. That's about it
the card doesn't say that!

RomeoXero

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 01:07:48 AM »
Incapacitated, restrained, and daze,  it literally does say that as i only specified daze and stun (which grants incapacitated).
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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 02:18:08 AM »
ב"ה
In the rules as written, they wouldn't be affected by a daze, by being restrained from cripple or stuck and by being incapaciated by slam, stun or sleep. They would be affected from being restrained by a tanglevine or being incapaciated from the Knockdown incantation.
That could be understood from the text on the card, however, it doesn't make sense thematically (at least not in a way I understand). So I do understand the need to ask about it.

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Re: Are Force Orb/Force Sword affected by things like Defense Ring?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2016, 04:23:06 AM »
Force Sword/Orb undoubtedly would have been Autonomous if it had existed then. As it is, they are similar, but not the same as Autonomous, which gives rise to some peculiarities such as this.

I'm pretty sure Defense Ring does work with them, although thematically it shouldn't (as it doesn't with Dancing Scimitar). I don't think it's worth an errata to tidy up though (and if one were to errata, I'd favour errating Defense Ring to include Autonomous defences...)