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Author Topic: Target = Arena  (Read 6763 times)

DaveW

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Target = Arena
« on: June 25, 2015, 11:39:35 AM »
I was thinking about the Gate to Hell spell. Someone said that opening it targets the Arena now instead of having a range of two zones as I had played it before. In the past, zones affected by the opening of the Gate were restricted to only those to which there was line of sight (due to targeting rules, which I learned after discussion here).

Is this the case now? In other words, must there be a line of sight from the Gate to each zone in the arena that it affects, even with the target being the entire Arena?

If so, how does this affect Renewing Rain? Does RR affect zones that are outside LoS to the caster?

Would Rolling Fog similarly limit the scope of these spells?

My guess (FWIW) is that when a spell targets the Arena, individual Zones and individual Objects are not themselves targeted... so you would never need LoS except to a small portion of the Arena perhaps... e.g. the zone you are in)... but I would like to know what those who know better than I do say about this. I can think of reasons why the ruling could be in either direction.

If these is a rule on targeting the Arena, I can't find it... so thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
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iNano78

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 12:09:52 PM »
Spells that target the arena (like Call of the Wild) usually don't need LoS to any objects (e.g. creatures) that they affect.  However, I haven't seen the new printing of Gate to Hell so can't comment on exactly how it works.
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 02:42:24 PM »
There's a difference between targeting something and affecting something. You don't need line of sight to have an effect on an object. It's similar to how you can affect an invisible creature with a zone attack. Thus, for arena effects you generally just need to target the arena and then everything in the arena is affected. You don't have to target everything individually.

DaveW

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 03:17:58 PM »
There's a difference between targeting something and affecting something. You don't need line of sight to have an effect on an object. It's similar to how you can affect an invisible creature with a zone attack. Thus, for arena effects you generally just need to target the arena and then everything in the arena is affected. You don't have to target everything individually.

True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.
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iNano78

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 03:21:59 PM »
Can someone with the new printing of the core set please type out or post an image of the new card text on Gate to Hell?  That would make discussion a lot easier.  I've heard that the range of Gate to Hell's attack has changed from "within 2 zones" to "the whole arena" but don't know how it is worded.

Based on the old wording (seen here), it seems that none of the creatures being attacked are actually targeted.
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Lord0fWinter

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 03:45:46 PM »
"All demon creatures gain melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a "Closed" token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the "Opened" side and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the Arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, summon a Demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 04:20:12 PM »
Quote from: DaveW
True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.

Not so. Again, I'll refer to the Invisible trait as an example, which says it can not be targeted but it can still be affected by attacks which don't target it directly (such as Zone attacks). That's what we have with Gate to Hell, an attack which is not targeting any objects directly but rather is affecting the entire arena.

DaveW

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 04:51:21 PM »
This was my argument in the old wording Gate to Hell days... that everything within two zones was attacked. It was shot down here (I have no idea in which thread), as I was told that there had to be LoS from the Gate to each zone to be able to affect that zone. Has that old ruling changed? If not, then how can this attack be any different. (I was referred to the attack sequence back then, if I recall correctly.)

The card says "make the above attack..." so it is an attack.

It looks to me like the only thing that is changed is that this attack is now without any range limitation. You still should need LoS to make the attack upon opening the gate... just like before... no?
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iNano78

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 04:52:51 PM »
Quote from: DaveW
True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.

Not so. Again, I'll refer to the Invisible trait as an example, which says it can not be targeted but it can still be affected by attacks which don't target it directly (such as Zone attacks). That's what we have with Gate to Hell, an attack which is not targeting any objects directly but rather is affecting the entire arena.

I think his point is that even in your Invisible Stalker example, a zone attack targets a zone.  If the source of the attack (e.g. creature, mage or Wizard's Tower, etc) doesn't have correct range and LoS to the zone, then the attack won't work.

However, in Gate to Hell's case, the attacks really don't target anything.  Every non-flying creature in the arena is attacked, no targeting necessary.
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 08:29:51 PM »
Hmm, while I still stand by the possibility of an attack targeting the arena, and thus hitting everything in it regardless of line of sight, after rereading Lordofwinters text I am inclined to agree that the previous gate to hell ruling still applies like davew suggests. The card is not written that it targets the arena, but rather that it targets all non flying creatures in the arena. It must therefore be able to target those creatures. I apologize for my mistake.

Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 08:50:55 PM »
The question at hand basically is what needs to be targeted. If it targets each zone within 2 then it needs line of sight to those zones. If it targets each creature within 2 then it needs line of sight to those creatures. If it targets the arena, then it needs line of sight to the arena, which it has as long as it is in the arena. But if it targets creatures within the arena, then it needs line of sight to those creatures.

I don't have the updated card in my possession, but lordofwinters post makes it sound like it targets the creatures. I could be wrong.

adanaz

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 09:28:11 PM »
I picked up the new Arena core set last week and have taken this picture for the good of this thread.  LordOfWinter had done enough with the card text, but for all of those who are visually inclined, behold the attachment!

Disclaimer:

Sorry, I don't know how to insert the image into the post.  Also, the image is huge - I haven't the time to resize etc.  It is readable though, I guess that is what matters.....

« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 09:35:52 PM by adanaz »
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sIKE

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 10:28:58 PM »
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DaveW

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 11:40:25 PM »
The question at hand basically is what needs to be targeted. If it targets each zone within 2 then it needs line of sight to those zones. If it targets each creature within 2 then it needs line of sight to those creatures. If it targets the arena, then it needs line of sight to the arena, which it has as long as it is in the arena. But if it targets creatures within the arena, then it needs line of sight to those creatures.

I don't have the updated card in my possession, but lordofwinters post makes it sound like it targets the creatures. I could be wrong.

My take from all of this is that, since opening the Gate attacks Creatures (per the wording in the text of the card), there needs to be LoS to each Creature attacked when the Gate is opened (due to the generic attack sequence wording).

Does anyone see this differently? That's how it worked before.

Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.
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sIKE

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 12:42:20 AM »
All other Arena wide effects do not need LoS:

Akiro's Battle Cry
Call of the Wild
Renewing Rain
Unholy Resurgence
V'Tar Suppression
Zombie Frenzy

However all of these cards specifically target the arena as a part of casting and resolving the spell. Gate to Hell attack comes from an effect once it is activated and doesn't use the word "All" like all of the above spells do. I am inclined to believe that LoS is needed, but wouldn't at all be surprised if Arcanus's intent was not to require  LoS. 
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