July 15, 2020, 01:49:16 PM

Author Topic: Target = Arena  (Read 6765 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2015, 09:22:48 AM »
Or maybe it's to prevent banished creatures from being attacked?
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2015, 09:34:20 AM »
Quote from: DaveW
Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.

It's not the fact that they're not attack spells that matters. Attack spells could potentially also target the arena and then ignore LoS on the objects effected. The important thing is that those spells target the Arena and this one doesn't sound like it does. Targeting all non-flying creatures within the Arena is different than targeting the Arena itself.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:36:10 AM by Zuberi »

iNano78

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2015, 10:39:58 AM »
Or maybe it's to prevent banished creatures from being attacked?

Banished creatures are immune to Gate to Hell regardless.  First, they're "out of the Arena"; second, "while out of the arena... it can only be affected by attached spells, conditions, or its own traits and abilities."

Quote from: DaveW
Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.

It's not the fact that they're not attack spells that matters. Attack spells could potentially also target the arena and then ignore LoS on the objects effected. The important thing is that those spells target the Arena and this one doesn't sound like it does. Targeting all non-flying creatures within the Arena is different than targeting the Arena itself.

As a general rule, if the word "target" isn't in the card text, then the spell doesn't require LoS.  See the difference between the teleport abilities of Wildfire Imp, and Blue Gremlin or Grey Wraith or Teleport Trap as examples of when LoS does/doesn't matter.  Since Gate to Hell doesn't use the word "target" anywhere in its text, it seems that LoS is not required.  If the creature is in the Arena (e.g. isn't Banished or otherwise out of the Arena), then it gets attacked.  At least, that's how I read it, in an attempt to be consistent with precedent from the FAQ on other cards that don't use the word "target."
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2015, 11:29:00 AM »
attacks, unlike other effects, innately require a target, like davew mentioned, according to the rules for declaring an attack. So, the question of what is being targeted by the attack is important. The two possibilities are either the arena, which then damages creatures in the arena similar to a zone attack regardless of los, or creatures within the arena individually, requiring LOS to those individuals. I don't think it is perfectly clear which is the case and would like official word.

iNano78

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2015, 11:45:23 AM »
attacks, unlike other effects, innately require a target, like davew mentioned, according to the rules for declaring an attack. So, the question of what is being targeted by the attack is important. The two possibilities are either the arena, which then damages creatures in the arena similar to a zone attack regardless of los, or creatures within the arena individually, requiring LOS to those individuals. I don't think it is perfectly clear which is the case and would like official word.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that attacks innately require a target.  For instance, doesn't Hellfire Trap work against an invisible Invisible Stalker?  The Trap doesn't say "target" with regards to its attack (it does say "target" regarding the zone for the purposes of casting the enchantment itself, but not for the attack), so my understanding is it will attack "that creature" that triggered it without "targeting" it.

*edit* By the way, I would also like to see an official ruling.  And I hope that the attack doesn't need LoS, because 24 mana (in two 12-mana bunches) for an Epic demonic version of Garrison Post + Tooth & Nail (assuming Melee +1 is about equivalent to Piercing +1) is still pretty expensive if the attack only hits non-flyers within LoS.  Otherwise the best response to a Gate to Hell would be to stick a Wall of Earth or Fog Bank in front of it - or perhaps cast Rolling Fog on the turn you expect your opponent might open the gate.  Besides, even if it does hit EVERY non-flyiing creature in the arena, Renewing Rain largely undoes the damage from the attack - at least for creatures that survived.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 12:29:16 PM by iNano78 »
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Zuberi

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 03:38:51 PM »
My comments about attacks requiring a target stems from two places. First, that the rulebook says you must choose a legal target during the declare attack step, and second from >>>this post<<< in which Shad0w supports the idea of a target being required.

You do bring up an interesting point about Hellfire Trap, though. I can not find any official word on how the trap works with regards to needing to target the creature. It is not mentioned in the Rules Supplement, nor could I find it with a forum search. The only thing my search pulled up was a discussion you had previously regarding teleport trap not needing to target.

So, if the idea that attacks innately need a target is accurate, then we may end up with an issue where Hellfire Trap actually is not able to attack the Invisible Stalker, and is instead revealed without effect. That doesn't sound right to me, but I can't think of another way it would work without eliminating the need for attacks to have a target.

So, now I want an official word on both Gate to Hell and Hellfire Trap, lol. This question has gotten a lot more interesting than it first appeared.

DaveW

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2015, 09:22:18 PM »
It has been a couple of weeks without resolution here, so I thought I would bring this up again. We would like official word on these.

Two questions exist, from what I can see:
1) Does the attack from the new wording on the Gate to Hell spell require LoS?
2) What happens when an invisible Invisible Stalker enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, and why?
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sIKE

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2015, 09:31:24 PM »
2) What happens when an invisible Invisible Stalker enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, and why?
The Hellfire Trap feels a disturbance in the force and triggers  :o
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Kharhaz

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Re: Target = Arena
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2015, 02:56:02 PM »
Technically:

LINE OF SIGHT
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight” (called  “LoS”  for  short).  Normally,  a  creature  has LoS to the entire game board, even into zones that are out of range. But, some walls block LoS. You cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through a wall that blocks LoS.


This was ruled to include spell effects as well (as per the ruling on the old Gate).


It would have been even better if they included a ranged or zone symbol on the attack bar on Gate to Hell.

If you want LoS to block the attack:
Put a ranged symbol. A ranged attack symbol always requires LoS.

If you don't want LoS to block the attack:
Put a zone attack symbol. reword to "Gate to hell makes the above zone attack vs each zone."

Neither of these approaches was taken however, and by the almost unaltered wording of the card text (unless there is a higher up that says otherwise:

"against each non flying creature up to 2 zones away" - old

"against each non flying creature in the arena" - new

the range is the only thing that changes and not the targeting so you need LoS still. (unfortunately)

If I were to make a wager I would bet this will be overturned to not require LoS but we will see.