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Author Topic: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone  (Read 7767 times)

Laddinfance

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2015, 11:39:15 AM »
Gentlemen, right now I can only say how I've always played it, which from the sound of it may or may not be correct.  I've played it so that a minimum range one would be able to attack a wall bordering its zone, because they had LOS to the target and the adjacent zone was in ranged.

Now clearly, in our attempt to clean up something else, we have muddied that particular rules interaction. I will be consulting Bryan about this to see how he meant for it to actually work. However at the moment that will take a little while as Bryan is indisposed.

Until then, it would seem there is no more to say on this issue. sorry for the wait.

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2015, 12:39:35 PM »
I am curious how it could be any simpler?

Does the source have an uninterrupted LOS?

Is the wall bordering a zone that is in range of the attack?

Resolve.

I understand how the rule stated in the FAQ is applied. That's not the problem here. The problem is it seems unintuitive given how attacks usually work. Intuitively, and according to the rules, you can only attack a target in a zone that is at a range listed for the attack (0 for melee, stated range for your ranged attack) AND to which you have line of sight. That usually involves one measurement: to the zone that contains the target. Walls aren't in zones so they are an exception with their own ruling. All that is fine. What gets weird is that a ranged attack with range limitation 1-X can target the same object that could also be targeted by a melee attack, which inherently has a range restriction of 0-0. Then one can argue that's fine because the wall isn't in a zone, it's on the border between zones that are at range 0 and range 1. Ok, that's still fine. Then what gets weird is I can use a range 1-X attack even if I don't have LoS to any objects at range 1 (or beyond). Attacking a wall can require 2 separate measurements: one for LoS to the wall, and another for range to a zone. Intuitively you might measure LoS and range to a zone the walls borders to determine if the attack is legal (as you would for any other type of target), but this is apparently wrong.

Flying is already an exception to this rule, but it makes sense thematically since it's easy to imagine the target might be range 1 (or further) vertically above the arena floor.  For me at least, It's less easy to imagine attacking something that's closer than the minimum range measured horizontally parallel to the floor.

As somebody else suggested, think of walls as being at range 0.5. Melee attacks, then, have range 0-0.5. Ok, but to be consistent with the current rules about walls that block LoS, ranged weapons that say range 1-X actually have a range of 0.5-X. That seems odd since the stated ranged of melee and "range 1-X" attacks don't seem to overlap... but with walls (and flying creatures) they do.

I don't have a gripe against the current rule. It's easy to follow. A bigger problem is that it isn't terribly easy for new players to find because new players tend to check the core set rules first, then maybe check the Codex as a reference (especially for key words), but probably don't check the more extensive FAQ unless there's an ambiguous case. From the rules and codex, it would at first seem that a range 1-X attack cannot target an LoS-blocking wall. This a new player may not bother to check the FAQ to find the current correct ruling. Perhaps the targeting rule for walls should be made more clear in the rules to prevent new players from missing it. Perhaps adding the following statement would be sufficient:

"If an attack has LoS to a wall and has range (but not necessarily LoS) to either zone the wall borders, then it can make an attack against that wall."
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 12:47:37 PM by iNano78 »
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Schwenkgott

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2015, 12:52:49 PM »
Royal Archer has minimum range of 1

A Wall bordering her zone is either at range 0 (if it counts a part of the same zone) or it is somewhat 0,5 (if you consider a wall inbetween two zones)

In both cases, the minimum range of 1 is preventing an attack.

3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes. There is no way to put more logic into this.
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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2015, 01:19:40 PM »
There is always a way to put more logic into something.
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Zuberi

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2015, 01:56:52 PM »
Quote from: Schwenkgott
3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes.

Measuring range in Mage Wars deals in whole numbers only, despite the wall existing between two whole numbers in actuality. Therefore, the wall exists at both range 0 and range 1 for purposes of measurement because it's actual distance is not possible to measure with the tools available. If your attack is capable of hitting an object at either of these ranges, it can hit the wall.

Schwenkgott

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2015, 02:25:28 PM »
Yes, and why not always using the shortest range for this issue? using the longest range would mean the arrow is flying over the wall, turns around and hit the wall from the other side.
I hope, we see a change of rules here in the future.
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iNano78

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2015, 02:38:30 PM »
Quote from: Schwenkgott
3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes.

Measuring range in Mage Wars deals in whole numbers only, despite the wall existing between two whole numbers in actuality. Therefore, the wall exists at both range 0 and range 1 for purposes of measurement because it's actual distance is not possible to measure with the tools available. If your attack is capable of hitting an object at either of these ranges, it can hit the wall.

The fact that this bolded statement isn't quite true (or at least is decieving) is the source of much of the debate. You can hit the wall with a range 1-X attack even if you can't hit an object in either of the zones it borders - that is, the closer zone is too close (range 0) and you don't have LoS to the further zone (because wall).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 02:50:37 PM by iNano78 »
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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »
Royal Archer has minimum range of 1

A Wall bordering her zone is either at range 0 (if it counts a part of the same zone) or it is somewhat 0,5 (if you consider a wall inbetween two zones)

In both cases, the minimum range of 1 is preventing an attack.

3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes. There is no way to put more logic into this.

No. A wall bordering her zone is not at any range at all. N/A: Not Applicable. NaN:Not a Number.  You cannot measure the distance to a wall with range. Range is always zones. No zone = no range. You can only measure distance to the zones adjacent to a wall.

The only reason you can attack a wall at all is that there are special wall rules that let you:
1. Make melee attacks against walls that border your zone
2. Make ranged attacks against walls for which you have LoS and one of the two adjacent zones in range.

Any discussion of range to the wall is counter to the rules.

Now, if we want to make things more complicated, measuring range FROM a wall (e.g. Chain Lightning) is something that we must do sometimes, and the rule seems to be that either of the zones adjacent to a wall are at range 1.
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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2015, 07:46:49 PM »

Royal Archer has minimum range of 1

A Wall bordering her zone is either at range 0 (if it counts a part of the same zone) or it is somewhat 0,5 (if you consider a wall inbetween two zones)

In both cases, the minimum range of 1 is preventing an attack.

3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes. There is no way to put more logic into this.

No. A wall bordering her zone is not at any range at all. N/A: Not Applicable. NaN:Not a Number.  You cannot measure the distance to a wall with range. Range is always zones. No zone = no range. You can only measure distance to the zones adjacent to a wall.

The only reason you can attack a wall at all is that there are special wall rules that let you:
1. Make melee attacks against walls that border your zone
2. Make ranged attacks against walls for which you have LoS and one of the two adjacent zones in range.

Any discussion of range to the wall is counter to the rules.

Now, if we want to make things more complicated, measuring range FROM a wall (e.g. Chain Lightning) is something that we must do sometimes, and the rule seems to be that either of the zones adjacent to a wall are at range 1.


What? How is it range 1? That's 0!
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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2015, 08:34:50 PM »
I was working off memory. That one might not actually have been answered publicly yet, oops.  :-\
I do not actually remember, now, how that was ruled.
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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2015, 08:52:17 PM »
I was working off memory. That one might not actually have been answered publicly yet, oops.  :-\
I do not actually remember, now, how that was ruled.

The chain lighting bit?

I think it was posted in the "will never matter in a game of Mage Wars ever" forum :P

Zuberi

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2015, 09:18:37 PM »

Quote from: Schwenkgott
3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes.

Measuring range in Mage Wars deals in whole numbers only, despite the wall existing between two whole numbers in actuality. Therefore, the wall exists at both range 0 and range 1 for purposes of measurement because it's actual distance is not possible to measure with the tools available. If your attack is capable of hitting an object at either of these ranges, it can hit the wall.

The fact that this bolded statement isn't quite true (or at least is decieving) is the source of much of the debate. You can hit the wall with a range 1-X attack even if you can't hit an object in either of the zones it borders - that is, the closer zone is too close (range 0) and you don't have LoS to the further zone (because wall).

Notice I did not say that the attack needed to be capable of hitting an object in the zone, just at that range. We are just discussing range. LOS is a different metric all together, and while I don't think you're claiming the wall blocks LOS to itself, I will remind you that to check this you need to draw an unobstructed line to the center of the Zone Border. Which we can easily do in this case.

Royal Archer has minimum range of 1

A Wall bordering her zone is either at range 0 (if it counts a part of the same zone) or it is somewhat 0,5 (if you consider a wall inbetween two zones)

In both cases, the minimum range of 1 is preventing an attack.

3 sentences to summon up how this should work in my eyes. There is no way to put more logic into this.

No. A wall bordering her zone is not at any range at all. N/A: Not Applicable. NaN:Not a Number.  You cannot measure the distance to a wall with range. Range is always zones. No zone = no range. You can only measure distance to the zones adjacent to a wall.

The only reason you can attack a wall at all is that there are special wall rules that let you:
1. Make melee attacks against walls that border your zone
2. Make ranged attacks against walls for which you have LoS and one of the two adjacent zones in range.

Any discussion of range to the wall is counter to the rules.

Now, if we want to make things more complicated, measuring range FROM a wall (e.g. Chain Lightning) is something that we must do sometimes, and the rule seems to be that either of the zones adjacent to a wall are at range 1.

This is entirely accurate and might be a better explanation than anything I attempted. Also, you are correct that the zones adjacent to the wall are considered range 1 when measuring from the wall. They follow the normal rules for measuring distance, where the zones adjacent to the source of the attack are considered range 1. It doesn't matter if the attacker is from an adjacent zone or an adjacent zone border.

Zuberi

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2015, 09:21:14 PM »
Yes, and why not always using the shortest range for this issue? using the longest range would mean the arrow is flying over the wall, turns around and hit the wall from the other side.
I hope, we see a change of rules here in the future.

That is not at all what this is representing. You are incapable of measuring distances outside of zones within the framework of the game. Since walls exist outside of zones, we have rules for approximating the range, and both possible approximations are equally acceptable. Neither is more valid than the other, so you can choose which you prefer and they both represent the same thing. Hitting the wall in a straight line from the source of the attack.

Laddinfance

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2015, 02:40:36 PM »
For clarity, a ranged attack with minimum range of 1 could target a wall on the border of its zone as the other zone would be within range.

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Re: Ranged Attack vs Wall bordering same zone
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2015, 07:51:26 PM »
Hey guys! I've been following this for awhile. Just wondering if Laddin's last post settles this. Would really like to know for certain that a range 1 can hit a wall in front of its face.
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