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Author Topic: The Wizard discussion  (Read 30911 times)

Laddinfance

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2015, 08:39:32 AM »
As with all research, the a multiple ways this can be interpreted. What I see from your game is that our mages aren't as different as we'd like. And honestly the solution to the problem is go make them more unique. They need things to differentiate themselves that you can't always just pick for your spellbook. So in the midst of working on PVS, this is a good realization.

I look at the druid and the necromancer and it seems they're a lot more unique. It would be quite tough for the wizard to try and "be them". So then looking at them, I'll be looking at what we can do to give our mages more unique feel.

Now this is not a response directly about balance, but I feel this issue better addresses what has come up from the game proposed here.

Halewijn

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2015, 08:47:50 AM »
As with all research, the a multiple ways this can be interpreted. What I see from your game is that our mages aren't as different as we'd like. And honestly the solution to the problem is go make them more unique. They need things to differentiate themselves that you can't always just pick for your spellbook. So in the midst of working on PVS, this is a good realization.

Don't be too harsh on yourself. The wizard acting like a warlock is possible, but 99% of the wizards are playing like a wizard. You guys do an amazing job making them feel different. Before buying/playing the druid I was expecting her to ruin the game.

"Another nature mage that will feel the same as the beastmaster but with plants"

I was really wrong!  ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 08:58:51 AM by Halewijn »
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SharkBait

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »


While I do think it's good to at least have some realization that this may be a possiblity, using the half of a game that I recorded as the only evidence right now is NOT what I would consider proper testing methods. I still think that there were multiple times that if vulcan had cards that weren't restricted to JUST the core set then he'd have won the game. There were also cards IN the core set that I'd have used that he did not and still more ways to come up with to have combated the Wizard in Warlock's clothing that would have done the warlock better. When you use EVERY card available + PROMOS vs someone with ONLY ONE CORE SET there is BOUND to be a difference. Player skill can help mitigate some of this, but you're still playing with one arm behind your back.

All I'm saying from all of this, is that using this recording as the only piece of evidence on either side of any argument that a wizard can warlock better than a warlock can is irresponsible from a testing perspective and leads to knee jerk reactions
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Coshade

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2015, 09:12:24 AM »
I agree with Shark. Vulcan had Hanma until he started to get armor going. Without Acid Ball or rust Vulcan just lost to armor. The Core Set had a lot of problems with massing armor and that game just proved it.
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Coshade

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2015, 09:13:05 AM »
A curse wizard sounds like a blast to play! It's supposed to be a warlock wizard right? Did it run any demons? I would be down for some hell spawn Wizard creatures :P
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 09:21:31 AM by Coshade »
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Laddinfance

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2015, 10:10:52 AM »
As with all research, the a multiple ways this can be interpreted. What I see from your game is that our mages aren't as different as we'd like. And honestly the solution to the problem is go make them more unique. They need things to differentiate themselves that you can't always just pick for your spellbook. So in the midst of working on PVS, this is a good realization.

Don't be too harsh on yourself. The wizard acting like a warlock is possible, but 99% of the wizards are playing like a wizard. You guys do an amazing job making them feel different. Before buying/playing the druid I was expecting her to ruin the game.

"Another nature mage that will feel the same as the beastmaster but with plants"

I was really wrong!  ;)

Thank you Halewijn. It means a lot to hear stuff like that from our players. In general, we want to keep each mage very unique and ideally, it's something that we want to keep looking at.

V10lentray

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2015, 10:12:56 AM »
Chitin Armor is practically rust proof....
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2015, 10:43:30 AM »
As with all research, the a multiple ways this can be interpreted. What I see from your game is that our mages aren't as different as we'd like. And honestly the solution to the problem is go make them more unique. They need things to differentiate themselves that you can't always just pick for your spellbook. So in the midst of working on PVS, this is a good realization.

I look at the druid and the necromancer and it seems they're a lot more unique. It would be quite tough for the wizard to try and "be them". So then looking at them, I'll be looking at what we can do to give our mages more unique feel.

Now this is not a response directly about balance, but I feel this issue better addresses what has come up from the game proposed here.

Fair point. I guess it's not conclusive after all. I stand corrected.




What I'm worried about now is that if they just try to power up all the other mages with more powerful cards over time in order to keep up with the wizard, that might make a LOT of cards in the earlier expansions significantly less usable in competitive play. Plus, I like having to make difficult decisions when spellbook building. If in the future I end up usually having to make an effort to reach 120 points instead of trying to trim down to it, I will be kind of disappointed. It really seems that part of why the wizard is so powerful isn't just a particular spell, but rather his training.
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Hanma

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2015, 11:36:37 AM »
As with all research, the a multiple ways this can be interpreted. What I see from your game is that our mages aren't as different as we'd like. And honestly the solution to the problem is go make them more unique. They need things to differentiate themselves that you can't always just pick for your spellbook. So in the midst of working on PVS, this is a good realization.

I look at the druid and the necromancer and it seems they're a lot more unique. It would be quite tough for the wizard to try and "be them". So then looking at them, I'll be looking at what we can do to give our mages more unique feel.

Now this is not a response directly about balance, but I feel this issue better addresses what has come up from the game proposed here.

I'm really glad that you think this way! It's exactly why I'm pushing so hard for better unique cards such as the good version of conquer. I do have to add though, here's a list of the things I can do better as a Wizard than other mages.
1. Curse Wizard, better than curse Warlock/Necromancer
2. Attack spell fire Wizard, better than Adramelech Warlock
3. Aggro, better than Forcemaster and Joktari Beastmaster most notably, but better than all other mages too.
(Attack spell Wizard, with or without Jinx)
4. 1-big strategy, better than all other mages, biggest names being Warlock and Priest. (See Wizzly Grizard)
5. Turtling for time wins, better than all mages aside from Priestess. (My gencon book last year had me at 40+ life every game.)
6. Mid-game in general, better than all other mages. (Weighted Training Clothes)

And here's a list of things mages can do better than Wizard, and the mages that do so.
1. Auto attacking. Forcemaster and Warlock. Keep in mind I am of the opinion of auto attacking is not currently a viable competitive strategy
2. Massing Creatures. Priestess, Necromancer, and Beastmaster. This also generally doesn't happen because it relies on your opponent not interacting with you.
3. Turtling for time wins. Priestess, also relies on non-interaction.

Here's a list of things I feel are equal.
1. Destroying conjurations, Warlord and Wizard are fairly equal thanks to Akiro's Hammer.

I will add that one game on a stream definitely isn't conclusive evidence, but though my personal testing I draw the same conclusion that Sailor Vulcan does. Curse Warlock isn't even close, curse Necromancer is closer in power though.

zot

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2015, 11:40:06 AM »


While I do think it's good to at least have some realization that this may be a possiblity, using the half of a game that I recorded as the only evidence right now is NOT what I would consider proper testing methods. I still think that there were multiple times that if vulcan had cards that weren't restricted to JUST the core set then he'd have won the game. There were also cards IN the core set that I'd have used that he did not and still more ways to come up with to have combated the Wizard in Warlock's clothing that would have done the warlock better. When you use EVERY card available + PROMOS vs someone with ONLY ONE CORE SET there is BOUND to be a difference. Player skill can help mitigate some of this, but you're still playing with one arm behind your back.

All I'm saying from all of this, is that using this recording as the only piece of evidence on either side of any argument that a wizard can warlock better than a warlock can is irresponsible from a testing perspective and leads to knee jerk reactions


   Agreed. While I have not seen the match, I also believed there was a build issue at play too. So, the immediate jump to a conclusion is just wrong here. It is a bad conclusion. And again the chorus of change, change, change. More time and tournaments are needed. Along the same time aw will be releasing more products which will include bumps for the lower tier mages.

iNano78

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2015, 11:56:08 AM »
And here's a list of things mages can do better than Wizard, and the mages that do so.
1. Auto attacking. Forcemaster and Warlock. Keep in mind I am of the opinion of auto attacking is not currently a viable competitive strategy

What is "auto attacking"?  Reverse Attack? Dancing Scimitar? Or generally melee attacking as your Mage's main action every turn (e.g. with Galvitar + Dancing Scimitar and whatever enchantment/equipment melee buffs you can afford)?
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Hanma

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2015, 01:14:13 PM »
And here's a list of things mages can do better than Wizard, and the mages that do so.
1. Auto attacking. Forcemaster and Warlock. Keep in mind I am of the opinion of auto attacking is not currently a viable competitive strategy

What is "auto attacking"?  Reverse Attack? Dancing Scimitar? Or generally melee attacking as your Mage's main action every turn (e.g. with Galvitar + Dancing Scimitar and whatever enchantment/equipment melee buffs you can afford)?

Melee attack main actions. This is even arguable given that I could auto attack, zap, and attack spell through Wizard's Tower every turn though.

sshroom

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2015, 01:38:00 PM »
Maybe there should be some kind of limited tourney format where wizard or just wizard's tower are not allowed? We don't allow wizards in our playgroup and I really think the game is fairer and more fun that way.

iNano78

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2015, 01:44:10 PM »
Melee attack main actions. This is even arguable given that I could auto attack, zap, and attack spell through Wizard's Tower every turn though.

Yep, and with either Staff of the Arcanum or trusty ol' Mage Staff, you could be "all Ethereal all the time" with all 3 of those attacks - not that Ethereal matters when attacking mages, but it comes in handy against any Incorporeal creatures your enemy might summon.  Ditto for the fact that all 3 can target flying creatures (using the Staff of the Arcanum's ranged attack or Mage Staff's Reach).  Heck, with the Staff of the Arcanum, you could even have 3 ranged attacks (to avoid guards) for all 3 of those attacks!  That's something nobody else can do.
(Well, except the Priest or Priestess using an Invarium Longbow + Temple of Light + a Quick-cast attack spell... but that's more costly, less versatile and usually weaker)
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coyotecloudchasr

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Re: The Wizard discussion
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2015, 03:29:01 PM »
As a newbie just throwing in my two cents to agree with sshroom:  in our group's very first game of playing Mage Wars together (and before reading any forums)  it was clear to us that playing the Wizard along with the Gate to Voltari and Wizard Tower cards was "easy mode".  It almost didn't matter what else you threw in your spellbook, because it was obvious that Gate played early gave you more creatures and Tower gave you more attacks than other mages.   Although we didn't ban Wizards from play,  we still look at playing a Wizard spell book as "easy mode" to winning.  I don't think it's a stretch that anybody just opening a box of Arena, knowing nothing about the game except the basic rules, and making their own decks (like we did) would see the Gate and Tower cards as overpowered and grab the Wizard as their first choice, leaving the other players feeling a little left out trying to figure out how to get around the obvious advantage those cards give the Wizard.
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