October 19, 2019, 07:57:19 PM

Author Topic: Top-Tier viable mages?  (Read 16818 times)

bigfatchef

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2015, 01:49:30 PM »
.... Even the mage I see as the weakest (the forcemaster) has plenty of competitively and non-competitively viable ways to play. It's more a matter of someone (or multiple people) taking the time to develop how to play a mage than it is the mage's inherent abilities.

Wow, so you really think forcemaster is the weakest? That means you think there is a good way to play the malakai priest? I would love to see that :) ! For my opinion his holy avanger is very situational and there are not strong enough light attacks out so far.

Too the topic

Wizard tower: spellbound would fix it in my eyes, too.
Wizard hinself: I also don't understand that AW starts acadamy with him. Feels unlucky. But making him pay more for untrained schools could fix it. The point really is, that he can use nearly all new cards and strategies coming.

TopTier and the domination of wizards are 2 topics in 1. For tournaments aggro wizard seems super efficient. But for creative fun play without time limit others are way better. Looking at late game strategies

SharkBait

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2015, 02:33:10 PM »
Quote
Wow, so you really think forcemaster is the weakest? That means you think there is a good way to play the malakai priest? I would love to see that :) ! For my opinion his holy avanger is very situational and there are not strong enough light attacks out so far.

Weakest is not the correct word, but the only one I have at the moment. I still think every mage has a viable build, there just seems to be a TON of group think going on about the wizard and no one putting any actual effort into figuring out new builds with other mages.

For a great (albeit not flashy) priest build, see Coshade's priest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoTS1G46YM4&index=1&list=PLKFenfrT4VG9YYcIHXsM_4LpQy0tjYSVo
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 02:37:29 PM by SharkBait »
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2015, 05:44:06 PM »
Quote
Wow, so you really think forcemaster is the weakest? That means you think there is a good way to play the malakai priest? I would love to see that :) ! For my opinion his holy avanger is very situational and there are not strong enough light attacks out so far.

Weakest is not the correct word, but the only one I have at the moment. I still think every mage has a viable build, there just seems to be a TON of group think going on about the wizard and no one putting any actual effort into figuring out new builds with other mages.

For a great (albeit not flashy) priest build, see Coshade's priest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoTS1G46YM4&index=1&list=PLKFenfrT4VG9YYcIHXsM_4LpQy0tjYSVo

It's not just group think. Every mage is at least viable, but wizard is still OP. People are totally putting in a lot of  effort to new builds with other mages. We've been doing it all along. It just so happens that between two equally skilled players, if one of them is using a wizard and the other isn't, that player has a big advantage. How big? That's hard to determine precisely, but I would expect the wiz player to win that matchup somewhere between 5 and 8 times out of 10, based on my own experience, tournament results, and the consensus of many of the best players in the game.
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ringkichard

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2015, 06:01:18 PM »
Basically what it comes down to is Wizard's tower does something almost no other card in the game can do, at a ridiculously cheap price.

Lets start with it's channeling 1 trait. It's comparable with a Mana Crystal in that regard. So that accounts for 5 out of its 7 point mana cost. It's also an Elemental Wand, so that's worth another 5 mana. It also lets you prepare a different third spell each round, so that's Mordok's Tome, which is another 5 mana. But maybe we'll call it 4 since it can only be an attack. It's also an extra action, the going price of which seems to be about 5 mana or more (see spawnpoints e.g.) And finally, it's a Ready Marker Conjuration, so it can act in combo with your other actions. I don't know how much that's worth, but using the Druid's flowers as a guideline I'd guess at least 3. We'll also say that those three flower points include the cost of avoiding Zone Exclusive. I'd also want to charge at least 1 mana for the superior armor and health it boasts, compared to Mana Crystal.

To be fair, it is immobile, which is probably worth a discount of some kind since it does attack. Slow seems to be worth about -5 on an Iron golem, but maybe only -3 on Gorgon Archer. I'm comfortable saying total immobility is worth -5 points on a ranged attacker. I think I'm being pretty generous here, actually, because it's not like Mana Crystal can get up and run away when attacked, so that should be baked into the base price; but why quibble?

That puts the Frankenstein cost estimate of Wizard's Tower at approx 18. It costs 7.

Is it any wonder there's a lot of groupthink about how to play the only mage allowed to use it? It could lose both Spellbind and Channeling and still be cheaper than par.
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Kaarin

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2015, 07:38:16 PM »
It's better than Elemental Wand, because You don't pay for changing spells and it doesn't block any slot (item/zone exclusive). Also since it's conjuration there's only one spell that can undo it and it's level 4 mage exclusive - Conquer.
I would compare Wizard's Tower to Battleforge. Excluding spellbind and working in different phase WT works like any Spawnpoint.
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exid

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2015, 12:39:46 AM »
 the direct-attack / constructed-game problem is found in a lot of games!
the wizard, with his acces to basic spells (mana, disenchant, etc.) and to attack spell (fireball, tower, etc.) is a perfect direct-attack mage, he will bring a lot of constructed-game mages to a Negative Play Experience.

solution?
first:
why has he 2 schools x1 and 0 school x3?
and nice personnal characteristics?
and private acces to tower?
and a lot of new cards in academy?

bigfatchef

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2015, 10:27:24 AM »
Another idea I have never read so far (I think) is removing the “wizard only“ trait and make wizard tower accessible to all mages. The bad thing is that this would make WT an auto-include in every book. That would mess up the whole game.

And still Wizard would need a tripple-paid school to be more balanced.

By the way because it was mentioned before: making ballista warlord only would make totally sense in my eyes! He is THE controller of war machinery and no one else.

Halewijn

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2015, 10:30:57 AM »
removing the “wizard only“ trait

I would cry, close the forum and never come back  :P
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ringkichard

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2015, 03:37:55 PM »
Another idea I have never read so far (I think) is removing the “wizard only“ trait and make wizard tower accessible to all mages. The bad thing is that this would make WT an auto-include in every book.

Your suggestion has glaring flaws (which you highlight wrt breaking the game), but don't sell it short. It's an original idea with two critically necessary merits:
1. It's simple
2. It works

I think testing this change would teach us a lot about the problem.

Which mage would like Wizard's Tower better than Wizard, I wonder? Forcemaster would love it. Warlord might not be able to run it, or want to. Which says something about Warlord more than Wizard's Tower, I think.

That'd be an interesting tournament mode: Training still applies, but everyone can take everything. Do Wizards still have the perceived advantage?
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Borg

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2015, 06:38:00 AM »
That'd be an interesting tournament mode: Training still applies, but everyone can take everything. Do Wizards still have the perceived advantage?

It could turn out to be pandemonium :)

Forcemaster with a Lair or Animal Kinship ?
Wizard with Barkskin or Forcefield ?
:)
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aridigas

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2015, 08:20:19 AM »
Luckily Forcefield can only target a FM, so that wouldn't be as bad.
Most Mage only cards require other cards to function properly. Spawnpoints and discount rings for example. Most of them will be out of school, if the main cards is as well. FM with Lair will still have to invest in animals at triple cost to make it work.

But I'm sure a lot of mages would love Galvitar, especially in Domination

Coshade

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2015, 10:37:56 AM »
Barracks and General's Signet Ring with the Priest wouldn't be half bad :D

Harshforge Plate would probably get used by most mages

Druid with the Lair would be terrifying
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bigfatchef

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 04:05:31 PM »
My idea was to make only wizard tower accessible to all mages to make his overpowering shared fairly. Mixing it all would be out of any theme.

Intangible0

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2015, 06:05:33 PM »
My idea was to make only wizard tower accessible to all mages to make his overpowering shared fairly. Mixing it all would be out of any theme.

Shouldn't do that. Then everyone would run it, similar to how many people will run Ballista if given the opportunity. It's perceived as a powerful card by most players and at this point even an optimal strategy. If that's the case then you don't want MW to become "Wizard's Tower" Wars by having every class be able to use one.

Also some fun statistics.
  • There are 383 cards in the game, according to the Spell Book Builder, including Domination. More to come with Academy.
  • By typing in "Wizard's Tower" correctly in the search bar in the forums I'm getting 5 results with those exact words in the thread name. When misspelled I'm getting 5 pages (30 a page) worth, although that includes the word "wizard" by itself too. Finally 19 pages if you type in the word "Tower", however that does also include posts about Dice Tower.
  • At GenCon last year there were 3 wizards who made the top 4, this last tournament there were two. Before Wizard's Tower Came out the numbers were a little less skewed.
  • In this thread titled "Top-Tier viable mages?" 10 out of 28 posts have the word "Tower" posted in them. This is of course not including my own yet, and anymore to come.
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bigfatchef

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2015, 04:52:08 PM »
I totally agree about WT is too much a topic. My idea was not a realistic one as I mentioned. Making him usable for all Mages would destroy Mage Wars quite a bit. As Ballista does a bit in it's actual version.
Making Ballista with its power Warlord only and reducing Wizards Advance in any way (or doing this by errataing the tower) could change the Top Tier MageList. That brings this Topic back to the question by the way :D