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Author Topic: Top-Tier viable mages?  (Read 15995 times)

Intangible0

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2015, 05:29:35 PM »
That brings this Topic back to the question by the way :D

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ringkichard

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 04:05:02 PM »
I don't think that Wizard is going to fall out of favor when Academy snaps its bonds and escapes into the wild, but I know there's a million different books I can't wait to try in public. It's not a total overhaul of the old order where "the first shall be last and the last shall be first," but there are so many individual cards in the set that do *that one thing* a spellbook needed to be playable. It really widens the game up, and I think the meta will change, even if the relative mages' powers stay where they are mostly.

Mostly :)
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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2015, 08:01:13 AM »
I am really curious, what academy will do with current position or style of play of Johktari Beastmistress :)
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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2015, 12:48:47 PM »
I am really curious, what academy will do with current position or style of play of Johktari Beastmistress :)
As other people have mentioned, the quick attack boomerang should give her quite the boost. (Now she can make decent use of both her abilities.)

Make her elusive and she can always run anywhere and throw that thing around. It shouldn't be too hard stacking a bunch of dice on the boomerang...

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2015, 01:33:09 PM »
Throwing Everything, Forever, Always.

That just sounds objectively better, how could it go wrong?
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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2015, 02:00:02 PM »
I think with the Academy release we are going to start seeing a lot of different plays from the Beastmasters. The Cowl allows for fun free actions. Certain totems become a lot more powerful with the cheap new creatures. And overall the enchantment pool might be harder to predict. I love that boomarang, but if you manage to make the hunting bow work right now, it can do some serious damage.

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ringkichard

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2015, 03:39:23 PM »
I think with the Academy release we are going to start seeing a lot of different plays from the Beastmasters. The Cowl allows for fun free actions. Certain totems become a lot more powerful with the cheap new creatures. And overall the enchantment pool might be harder to predict. I love that boomarang, but if you manage to make the hunting bow work right now, it can do some serious damage.

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2015, 03:35:53 PM »
I'm not convinced that the Wizard is somehow going to be brought in line as the card pool grows, at least considering the current pattern of releases; the problem is that he can, through his training, just adapt to best suit the current card pool. 

For the Wizard to be balanced via new releases, those new releases, maybe a couple or so, would need to stop introducing important cards that the Wizard can include at base spellbook point cost...which is pretty limiting from a design perspective, considering that would include all of the minor schools (and Arcane).  But as Academy gives the Wizard lots of new toys, such as a level 1 Arcane creature (the Wizard used to be the only Mage with a Spawnpoint without that, IIRC), I just don't see that happening. 

I hope that as I play these new releases, I'll see yet more improvement in terms of balance, but I really see the problem with the Wizard based in his mage stats card (primarily) and the unyielding expansion of the Arcane/Minor schools, not necessarily the lack of options for other mages.
I completely agree.  Back with only the base set, there were still arguments that the Wizard was slightly more powerful than the other 3 mages, but it was generally considered a very small difference in power.  From what I've seen, the wizard has actually gotten more powerful with almost every expansion due to his deck-building options.  Forcemaster vs Warlord made Earth Wizards more viable, Forged in Fire gave Fire Wizards a lot more tools, and Paladin vs Siren is almost definitely going to give the Wizard lots of Water cards he can make use of. 

Long story short, without an errata of some kind, the Wizard is always going to remain one of the most powerful mages.  He can make too much use of the overall card pool, so he's not going to ever fall behind (unless Arcane Wonders releases an expansion with practically no elemental or Arcane cards, and even then he can just pay double for any other stuff he's really interested in).  But if Arcane Wonders is going to errata the Wizard himself, they really need to do it before they release Alt Wizard vs Alt Forcemaster, which is going to be their next minor Arena expansion. 

I'm not sure why the first set of Academy was Wizard v. Beastmaster and not Priestess v. Warlock, to be honest.
While it is a bit awkward, I do see the logic in having Beastmaster vs Wizard be the first release.  The latest release was Forged in Fire, which helped out Warlocks.  The next Arena release is going to be Paladin vs Siren, which is obviously going to help out the Priestess as well with new Holy school cards.  So Arcane Wonders kind of had to give the Beastmasters something to prevent them from getting stale. 

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2015, 04:59:39 PM »

I'm not convinced that the Wizard is somehow going to be brought in line as the card pool grows, at least considering the current pattern of releases; the problem is that he can, through his training, just adapt to best suit the current card pool. 

For the Wizard to be balanced via new releases, those new releases, maybe a couple or so, would need to stop introducing important cards that the Wizard can include at base spellbook point cost...which is pretty limiting from a design perspective, considering that would include all of the minor schools (and Arcane).  But as Academy gives the Wizard lots of new toys, such as a level 1 Arcane creature (the Wizard used to be the only Mage with a Spawnpoint without that, IIRC), I just don't see that happening. 

I hope that as I play these new releases, I'll see yet more improvement in terms of balance, but I really see the problem with the Wizard based in his mage stats card (primarily) and the unyielding expansion of the Arcane/Minor schools, not necessarily the lack of options for other mages.
I completely agree.  Back with only the base set, there were still arguments that the Wizard was slightly more powerful than the other 3 mages, but it was generally considered a very small difference in power.  From what I've seen, the wizard has actually gotten more powerful with almost every expansion due to his deck-building options.  Forcemaster vs Warlord made Earth Wizards more viable, Forged in Fire gave Fire Wizards a lot more tools, and Paladin vs Siren is almost definitely going to give the Wizard lots of Water cards he can make use of. 

Long story short, without an errata of some kind, the Wizard is always going to remain one of the most powerful mages.  He can make too much use of the overall card pool, so he's not going to ever fall behind (unless Arcane Wonders releases an expansion with practically no elemental or Arcane cards, and even then he can just pay double for any other stuff he's really interested in).  But if Arcane Wonders is going to errata the Wizard himself, they really need to do it before they release Alt Wizard vs Alt Forcemaster, which is going to be their next minor Arena expansion. 

I'm not sure why the first set of Academy was Wizard v. Beastmaster and not Priestess v. Warlock, to be honest.
While it is a bit awkward, I do see the logic in having Beastmaster vs Wizard be the first release.  The latest release was Forged in Fire, which helped out Warlocks.  The next Arena release is going to be Paladin vs Siren, which is obviously going to help out the Priestess as well with new Holy school cards.  So Arcane Wonders kind of had to give the Beastmasters something to prevent them from getting stale.

The wizard can only be trained in one elemental school at a time. The warlock is also fully trained in fire as well as a major school, just like the wizard. Unlike the warlock, wizard is trained in arcane, not dark.

This means that if the problem is with the wizard's abilities it's probably either that the arcane school itself is too powerful, or the wizard tower is OP, or some combination of the two.

Personally I'm thinking possibility #3 is most likely. Dispel is still too often an auto-include in so many spellbooks. It's not as bad as it used to be for the warlord now that we have harshforge, and astral anchor should help against teleport a lot. Therefore, fleshing out the other schools more might go a long way towards fixing the wizard.
Another good idea might be to give errata to wizard tower. If we give errata to the tower, I'm thinking the best option is to make it epic or increase its mana cost to 9 or 10. I've already discussed the reasons I think increasing the mana cost will help but just in case it was forgotten, wizard tower as it's priced right now pays itself back in 7 rounds, and he can use it to throw a boulder at the enemy Mage in the very first round even if they never leave their starting zone. No other Mage has the ability to do this. Even if you do go for an attack spell opening in the first round, you will usually be leaving yourself open to things like wall of thorns push, or the enemy will simply outlast your early aggression. However, the wizard tower allows you to use this exact same early aggressive opening, but without any of the drawbacks because it doesn't take any of your mage's actions to cast each attack, and it even gives you extra mana too, allowing you to continue this same exact strategy from the early game long into the late game.

Additionally, for gate wizards, increasing the mana cost for wizard's tower means that if they want to keep deploying lv2 arcane creatures like gremlin and leech, he'll have to wait at least one more round before casting the tower.

Other options include increasing the level of the tower to 3, making it a full action to cast, and taking away its channeling. I think that last one might also be a good idea, but I am skeptical that it will be enough by itself.

Back when it was just the base set, I suspect that his superior access to dispel and teleport was what made him slightly more powerful back then. It wasn't the number of elemental spells.

At the moment all the mage's are at least somewhat viable, but they are not all competitive, and they do not all have as many viable options for spellbook design. Ironically, Wizards seem to have been rather lacking in viable spellbook diversity for a while simply because the strategy of putting in the Wizard tower and loading up on attack spells and meta magic (plus maybe a battle forge or gate), is so powerful that no one ever does anything else with him.
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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2015, 08:12:37 PM »
At the moment I don't see why Arcane Wonders is acting like they are, but I guess neither the wizard himself nor the tower will get errataed. The topic had been discussed a thousand times with very good ideas and simple solutions (like spellbind or epoc on WT, or triplepay for one school) and the tournament results are pretty solid wizardish. In nearly every post or interview in this forum the Wizardquestion is asked or discussed. Players start to not play him for it is getting boring. The new focus seems to be more in playing creative.
And this is where I think we will end. The wizard will get stronger and stronger and it is not gonna change. The players will change around it and accept it as a challenge.

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2015, 10:24:28 PM »
At the moment I don't see why Arcane Wonders is acting like they are, but I guess neither the wizard himself nor the tower will get errataed. The topic had been discussed a thousand times with very good ideas and simple solutions (like spellbind or epoc on WT, or triplepay for one school) and the tournament results are pretty solid wizardish. In nearly every post or interview in this forum the Wizardquestion is asked or discussed. Players start to not play him for it is getting boring. The new focus seems to be more in playing creative.
And this is where I think we will end. The wizard will get stronger and stronger and it is not gonna change. The players will change around it and accept it as a challenge.

I assure you, there is a plan. You may not like it, or think it'll work, or even be allowed to know it, but there is a plan. From what I've seen, AW doesn't like this situation either, and they're trying to solve it in a careful and effective manner. As always: effective, fast, safe; pick two.
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Ganpot

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2015, 11:27:29 PM »
The wizard can only be trained in one elemental school at a time. The warlock is also fully trained in fire as well as a major school, just like the wizard. Unlike the warlock, wizard is trained in arcane, not dark.
Yes, but the warlock can't suddenly decide to include a ton of water or earth spells when those sets get expanded without investing a lot in them, while the wizard is completely free to change to fit the current meta.  Additionally, the wizard doesn't pay triple price for ANYTHING.  He is basically the jack of all trades, while simultaneously having his own area of mastery. 

This means that if the problem is with the wizard's abilities it's probably either that the arcane school itself is too powerful, or the wizard tower is OP, or some combination of the two.

Personally I'm thinking possibility #3 is most likely. Dispel is still too often an auto-include in so many spellbooks. It's not as bad as it used to be for the warlord now that we have harshforge, and astral anchor should help against teleport a lot. Therefore, fleshing out the other schools more might go a long way towards fixing the wizard.
Another good idea might be to give errata to wizard tower.

Back when it was just the base set, I suspect that his superior access to dispel and teleport was what made him slightly more powerful back then. It wasn't the number of elemental spells.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the Arcane school is too powerful and that the Wizard's Tower needs to be changed somehow.  I just also think the Wizard himself is too flexible as well.  I also agree that back in the base set, the reason the Wizard was arguably more powerful was his easy access to dispel and teleport, but that has slowly changed to some extent with the continuous addition of new elemental spells. 

I assure you, there is a plan. You may not like it, or think it'll work, or even be allowed to know it, but there is a plan. From what I've seen, AW doesn't like this situation either, and they're trying to solve it in a careful and effective manner. As always: effective, fast, safe; pick two.
Based on their past actions, my best guess is that they plan on fixing the wizard by slowly introducing new cards which counter his mainstay cards.  Astral Anchor to counter Teleport, Harshforge Plate to counter Dispel, Rolling Fog to counter Wizard's Tower.  While I think that can and will work for the arcane school as a whole, I'm not sure that will work for the wizard himself or for the Wizard's Tower.  Like I've said previously, the wizard's training gives him too much flexibility, and the Wizard's Tower simply has too many upsides with almost no downsides.  Countering the wizard's training would require making a LOT more cards mage and school specific, and introducing hard counters to the Wizard's Tower would also heavily nerf other conjurations or ranged attacks which are not overpowered.  I appreciate Arcane Wonder's desire to not errata cards unless they absolutely have to, but it would honestly be the easiest and most sure-fire way to fix the problem in this particular case because it would ensure there were no collateral side-effects. 

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Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2015, 04:00:13 AM »
The wizard can only be trained in one elemental school at a time. The warlock is also fully trained in fire as well as a major school, just like the wizard. Unlike the warlock, wizard is trained in arcane, not dark.
Yes, but the warlock can't suddenly decide to include a ton of water or earth spells when those sets get expanded without investing a lot in them, while the wizard is completely free to change to fit the current meta.  Additionally, the wizard doesn't pay triple price for ANYTHING.  He is basically the jack of all trades, while simultaneously having his own area of mastery. 

This means that if the problem is with the wizard's abilities it's probably either that the arcane school itself is too powerful, or the wizard tower is OP, or some combination of the two.

Personally I'm thinking possibility #3 is most likely. Dispel is still too often an auto-include in so many spellbooks. It's not as bad as it used to be for the warlord now that we have harshforge, and astral anchor should help against teleport a lot. Therefore, fleshing out the other schools more might go a long way towards fixing the wizard.
Another good idea might be to give errata to wizard tower.

Back when it was just the base set, I suspect that his superior access to dispel and teleport was what made him slightly more powerful back then. It wasn't the number of elemental spells.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the Arcane school is too powerful and that the Wizard's Tower needs to be changed somehow.  I just also think the Wizard himself is too flexible as well.  I also agree that back in the base set, the reason the Wizard was arguably more powerful was his easy access to dispel and teleport, but that has slowly changed to some extent with the continuous addition of new elemental spells. 

I assure you, there is a plan. You may not like it, or think it'll work, or even be allowed to know it, but there is a plan. From what I've seen, AW doesn't like this situation either, and they're trying to solve it in a careful and effective manner. As always: effective, fast, safe; pick two.
Based on their past actions, my best guess is that they plan on fixing the wizard by slowly introducing new cards which counter his mainstay cards.  Astral Anchor to counter Teleport, Harshforge Plate to counter Dispel, Rolling Fog to counter Wizard's Tower.  While I think that can and will work for the arcane school as a whole, I'm not sure that will work for the wizard himself or for the Wizard's Tower.  Like I've said previously, the wizard's training gives him too much flexibility, and the Wizard's Tower simply has too many upsides with almost no downsides.  Countering the wizard's training would require making a LOT more cards mage and school specific, and introducing hard counters to the Wizard's Tower would also heavily nerf other conjurations or ranged attacks which are not overpowered.  I appreciate Arcane Wonder's desire to not errata cards unless they absolutely have to, but it would honestly be the easiest and most sure-fire way to fix the problem in this particular case because it would ensure there were no collateral side-effects.

I think you completely missed my point. There is not a single wizard adapting to the meta based on what element has gotten the latest boost. There are technically FOUR wizards, one for each element. Right now there is not enough diversity between the spellbooks of the four wizards because they all tend to run the same couple of dominant strategies. It seems unlikely that arcane zap or voltaric shield are significant factors in all this. That leaves us with the wizards' training (including their superior access to dispel and teleport) and their tower.

I don't like the tower being an auto include in all good wizard books. It seriously limits the variety of wizards out there.

Also, according to their description on the main site, wizards are supposed to be tricksters/master manipulators. However, they generally don't play like that. Right now they're all clearly more of the "overwhelm you with superior mana supply and action advantage for as little cost as possible" kind of mage. If there was a trickster or master manipulator of any kind I would totally play it.

If the description on the main site describes the wizards' intended playstyle, then wizards have NEVER played as intended. They were probably OP since the very beginning, first because of their superior access to dispel and teleport, and now because of wizard's tower. The fact that they don't pay triple for anything either exacerbates these issues that already exist, or it allowed them to be problems in the first place. I'm not sure which.

The way the wizards play now is unthematic, unfun, and unintuitive to new players, especially since the style of a lot of arcane spells and the description of the wizard on the main site give him the illusion of a playstyle that he SHOULD have but doesn't because it was hijacked by a combination of dispel and teleport not having any counters in the base game and wizard's tower plus not having to pay triple for anything.

Moving forward, I really think the wizard needs to be able to have his original intended playstyle, and that we should not try to preserve his current playstyle that only came into existence by accident as a result of a few imbalances that took way too long to start being addressed. If this is possible with new cards then I'm all for it. If his original intended playstyle is not fully restored by the new cards, then I think an errata is the best option. While errata is not ideal, I think it's better to admit and fix your mistakes instead of continuing to make the same mistake. See the sunk-cost fallacy.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 04:17:58 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2015, 07:07:28 AM »
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

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Re: Top-Tier viable mages?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2015, 07:17:50 AM »
See the sunk-cost fallacy.

My favorite!

People have favorite logical fallacies? I didn't even know that was a thing...  :o
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