March 22, 2019, 09:56:39 PM

Author Topic: Casting cost of Purify?  (Read 11447 times)

jacksmack

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Casting cost of Purify?
« on: September 18, 2015, 01:41:45 PM »
Whats the casting cost of Purify? 0 or variable (depending on what conditions you remove and what enchantments you destroy).

This is highly relevant against a possible nullify - as you will either lose 0 mana or potentially alot of mana.

The cost in the corner is X, but i find the text misleading because as i understand it its during the resolve phase that you are paying. And not even at the same time because of "Then".


There is also potentially a timing issue with enchantment transfusion. If its DURING the resolve step that you select the poison enchantments then enchantment transfusion cannt be revealed now.
In that case the enemy must reveal it before this step and choose what enchantments he wants moved.

In case you pay the mana up front do you also choose the enchantment, or can you wait til last step (assuming same or lower mana cost).


Please help :)

Boocheck

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2015, 02:09:45 PM »
Before we all be Zuberized,

Purify can be casted for 0 mana. Thus you can use it as a very long poking stick but you will remove nothing.

Now, casting steps are "Target and paying mana", "Counterspell step" and "Resolve step".

Shift Enchantment is revealed any time before Resolve step, yes, your opponent can transfer all "Poison" enchantements from the target of Purify to some other.

Did you know, that if you say "Shift Enchantement" into half empty glass of milk three times, one of the card designers will curse your attack dice rolls? :)
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jacksmack

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2015, 02:24:52 PM »
Purify Cost = X

Is that an error? Should it say 0, because you pay during resolve? Or should it actually be X so you during step 1 already settle on how much mana you want to spend in total?


I know that the spell CAN be casted for 0 mana. But thats not what this thread is about.


Lets not confuse shift enchantment into this. Its enchantment transfusion.

Zuberi

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2015, 03:28:27 PM »
I know that this is familiar information for most of us, but I think the first thing we should do is go over the steps for casting a spell. Especially since they have changed with the 4th edition printing. According to the rules on page 13 of the 4th edition English Rules, the steps for casting a spell are thus:

Step 1: Declare Spell
This is the step where you select your target AND choose the exact effect that the spell will have if there are multiple possible effects. For example, with Dissolve you would choose both the Mage you are targeting, and the specific equipment that you wish to destroy as an effect of the spell.

Step 2: Pay Costs
This is the step where you actually pay for the spell. The cost of the spell may be affected by your choices in Step 1, such as with Dissolve where the cost is equal to the casting cost of the equipment you selected for destruction.

Step 3: Counter Spell
Nothing happens during this step unless it specifically says it can.

Step 4: Resolve Spell
This final step is where the spell actually takes effect and does as you've intended. If it gets to this step, it is too late to stop it from happening.

It is also important to remember that a spell's text box isn't just used to describe it's effect, but is also used to clarify how to handle the spell during it's casting. Such as V'Tarrian Healing Song restricting the target further than just a Living Creature, to one within the same zone as an orb you control. That's not an effect of the spell, it is clarification on targeting during the casting of the spell.

Now, let's finally take a look at Purify. I 100% agree that this spell could be better written and is somewhat confusing to look at. First thing's first, the casting cost is listed as X, which we know indicates a variable casting cost which must be paid during the Pay Costs step. When a spell has a variable casting cost, it will tell you how to calculate that cost in it's text box. I really wish that Purify followed the same pattern as Dissolve with a line that read "X=this casting cost", but it does not.

Instead, the text box of Purify makes it sound like you neither have to select what you're removing nor pay for them until the Resolve Spell step. Especially since you don't handle the Enchantments until after the Conditions have already been removed completely. The magic rule which says that specific card text overrides general rules would allow it to do this as well. However, we still have to pay for the casting cost of X before we can even get to the Resolve Spell step, and we don't know how to calculate that cost. That does not mean it costs 0. Saying that we know it is 0 because we don't know how to calculate it makes no more sense than saying it is 2 because we don't know how to calculate it. We simply don't know and would have to leave it at that.

So, either the text box is poorly written and the spell is supposed to be handled the exact same way as other similar spells, such as Dissolve. Or, the variable casting cost of X is a typo and we don't know how much it actually costs. I am inclined to believe it is the former, and that is how I would personally play it. The other option would actually make it unplayable currently.

Boocheck

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2015, 03:30:37 PM »
I have rules v3. Is "spell order" now in 4 steps? I should really update my stuff :)
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ringkichard

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 05:58:58 PM »
I'm inclined to follow the text as written over the cost as printed, just because the text seems more indicative of intention.
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Zuberi

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 10:08:51 PM »
It might be going off topic a little, but since we're discussing the possibility that Purify may be unplayable due to the confusing way in which it is written, I thought I'd mention the fact that the game does actually contain some entirely unplayable cards. Animate Dead and Resurrection are two cards that can never be cast as they are currently written. It is impossible for you to legally target a Discarded Non-Epic Living Creature or a Destroyed Living Creature. Your discard pile is neither in range or in line of sight from the caster, so you would never be able to resolve these spells according to the rules.

sIKE

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 10:48:14 PM »
It might be going off topic a little, but since we're discussing the possibility that Purify may be unplayable due to the confusing way in which it is written, I thought I'd mention the fact that the game does actually contain some entirely unplayable cards. Animate Dead and Resurrection are two cards that can never be cast as they are currently written. It is impossible for you to legally target a Discarded Non-Epic Living Creature or a Destroyed Living Creature. Your discard pile is neither in range or in line of sight from the caster, so you would never be able to resolve these spells according to the rules.
I would argue that card as written is one of very few cards where the card text supersedes the normal rules.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 09:18:06 AM by sIKE »
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Halewijn

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2015, 03:42:55 AM »
I agree with Sike on that one. Those cards are written perfectly.

About purify, I always assumed x was the total cost of the enchantments/conditions you removed. I assumed they forgot to add this in the discription. In other words, you have to pay beforehand. The other possibility is indeed changing X to a zero. allowing you to pay afterwards.

Maybe Laddinfance can make an official statement about this when he has the time?
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DaveW

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2015, 06:49:07 AM »
I also always assumed that this X related to the enchantments and conditions... though never really thought about when in the sequence of play you had to pay for them all.

Since the X represents (in part) Enchantments that are actually removed, does this mean that you don't have to pay mana if some of them are transfused off the creature before the spell resolves? I am thinking that you have to pay first (due to the new sequence, mentioned earlier... which I wasn't aware of until it was mentioned here).

Also, I also have heard (I think) that the spell can be cast with zero mana spent, to be used to pop a Nullify. You are choosing to remove zero enchantments and conditions, after all. That could be made more clear (either way) in any change to card text or Codex entry.
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Zuberi

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2015, 12:23:35 PM »
It might be going off topic a little, but since we're discussing the possibility that Purify may be unplayable due to the confusing way in which it is written, I thought I'd mention the fact that the game does actually contain some entirely unplayable cards. Animate Dead and Resurrection are two cards that can never be cast as they are currently written. It is impossible for you to legally target a Discarded Non-Epic Living Creature or a Destroyed Living Creature. Your discard pile is neither in range or in line of sight from the caster, so you would never be able to resolve these spells according to the rules.
I would argue that card as written is one of very few cards where the card text supersedes the normal rules.

How? The target line tells you what you need to target, and then the text box says that you also get to summon your choice of creature, taken from a discard pile instead of a spellbook. The fact that it's from a discard pile instead of a spellbook supersedes normal rules, but there is nothing written on the card that overrides normal targeting rules. As it is written, you need to first target a creature in a discard pile, which is impossible, and then you can choose any creature you want from a discard pile and summon it to your zone. It doesn't even have to be the creature you originally (tried to) target.

These two spells are similar to Disarm, where you choose an equipment to disable. This choice has no effect on the fact that you are still required to follow the normal rules when targeting the Mage. Same with Resurrection or Animate Dead, choosing a creature to summon has no effect on the fact you are still required to target an impossible target. Nothing in the targeting bar or text box says we are able to ignore those rules, the targeting bar just gives us an impossible task.

What they should do is have you target a zone, and then choose a creature from a discard pile to summon to the target zone. Can still keep the 0-0 range and it would work perfectly. Very easy and simple change, but otherwise the cards are currently broken and unplayable.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 12:30:05 PM by Zuberi »

sIKE

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2015, 01:20:50 PM »
Interesting, I wasn't a playtester for DvN, but just looking at Animate Dead, the Target Bar: Discarded non-Epic Living Creature, here is one of the places where the card text overrides the typical rules, and is therefore possible). You can choose a non-Epic creature from any discard pile, note not Obliterated/removed from game, and then finally summon it into your zone. Your zone of course is the location where it will be summoned to, which jibes with the location you would normally summon a creature to though that is the actual target typically.

This is clearly and concisely written and of course it is outside of the normal game mechanic's, is it broken? No, it just doesn't follow the typical game rules.

The same goes from Resurrection though it is worded slightly different.

Could the card text be written better, sure and I do like your approach much better.

Quote
These two spells are similar to Disarm, where you choose an equipment to disable. This choice has no effect on the fact that you are still required to follow the normal rules when targeting the Mage. Same with Resurrection or Animate Dead, choosing a creature to summon has no effect on the fact you are still required to target an impossible target. Nothing in the targeting bar or text box says we are able to ignore those rules, the targeting bar just gives us an impossible task.
This is reason I really despise directly targeting Equipment.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 01:22:38 PM by sIKE »
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Zuberi

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2015, 02:14:51 PM »
Quote from: sIKE
...the Target Bar: Discarded non-Epic Living Creature, here is one of the places where the card text overrides the typical rules, and is therefore possible).

So, you're saying that because it is listed in the target bar, that makes us able to target it? By that logic, I should be able to target whatever is in the target bar, regardless of the normal targeting rules, because the card text overrides them. So, I can cast Dissolve on you from 5 zones away, because it says I can target a Mage. Saying that the target bar supersedes the normal targeting rules makes the normal targeting rules completely pointless. The target bar tells you what you need to target, it doesn't tell you how to accomplish targeting it.

sIKE

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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2015, 02:53:38 PM »
Quote from: sIKE
...the Target Bar: Discarded non-Epic Living Creature, here is one of the places where the card text overrides the typical rules, and is therefore possible).

So, you're saying that because it is listed in the target bar, that makes us able to target it? By that logic, I should be able to target whatever is in the target bar, regardless of the normal targeting rules, because the card text overrides them. So, I can cast Dissolve on you from 5 zones away, because it says I can target a Mage. Saying that the target bar supersedes the normal targeting rules makes the normal targeting rules completely pointless. The target bar tells you what you need to target, it doesn't tell you how to accomplish targeting it.
Yes this is exactly what I am saying. You are saying that the company who built the card, has made something that is broken. I disagree, I am quite sure (once again I was not involved in the DvN play testing) that this was discussed heavily during the playtesting process and if Arcanus said that the target bar worked for him, then that is what it is. Not a mistake, not broken, just an exception to the normal rules. Just because Arcanus can say so doesn't mean that siKE can cast a Dissolve from 5 zones away just because I say, I do not have that kind of power and it is not my game. Really not trying to be mean or argumentative for the sakes of being argumentative. I just believe that if the creators/designers intent is written out in the card text, and it is atypical for the game, doesn't mean that it is broken.

I have stated that I agree with you, that both cards could be better worded and fit more easily in the typically rules framework. Errata these two cards, good luck.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 02:55:59 PM by sIKE »
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Re: Casting cost of Purify?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2015, 03:50:56 PM »
Or just say that all cards not on the board/cast are 0-0 from all mages playing.