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Author Topic: about waiting...  (Read 3312 times)

exid

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about waiting...
« on: September 19, 2015, 08:55:05 AM »
I like long games (4 hours and more) and tend to build waiting spellbooks (many rounds preparing my army, the arena, etc., before action).
Sometime I play them "right", waiting, sometime I play them faster (because I see a good opportunity, because my opponent force me to react,...).

More and more, I ask myself if my wayting strategies are good, if my waiting spellbooks are not better played fast (and could save spell points from the "waiting module" to a more effective module).

Is there a real advantage to wait at the begining of a MW game?

Anubis

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 04:18:24 PM »
I think that waiting for the sole purpose of waiting is a bad thing. You should always have a goal and a direction to follow.  Of course you can have a strategy where you wait by dealing with your opponent's threats before you take yours out. But if you just wait and do nothing you give enough time to your oppent to kill your mage.

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results...

ringkichard

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2015, 07:26:33 PM »
Just for fun, play an Earth Wizard with 4 hurl boulder and 6 throw rock, along with maybe a Hawkeye, Wizard's Tower, and 4+ Dissolves. Deathlock and Surging Wave maybe, too. Just go for the throat, your first turn should be Double Boulder if possible. See if you can't win on round 6. :)

After that,  if you still want to wait, that's cool too, but at least you'll know.
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exid

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2015, 01:09:21 AM »
Just for fun, play an Earth Wizard with 4 hurl boulder and 6 throw rock, along with maybe a Hawkeye, Wizard's Tower, and 4+ Dissolves. Deathlock and Surging Wave maybe, too. Just go for the throat, your first turn should be Double Boulder if possible. See if you can't win on round 6. :)

After that,  if you still want to wait, that's cool too, but at least you'll know.

I did it once, was fun, but frustrating: no enough suffering!

exid

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2015, 01:12:38 AM »
I think that waiting for the sole purpose of waiting is a bad thing. You should always have a goal and a direction to follow.  Of course you can have a strategy where you wait by dealing with your opponent's threats before you take yours out. But if you just wait and do nothing you give enough time to your oppent to kill your mage.

i think i understand now that i often wait without a good goal.

my question is: what could be a good goal for a waiting strattegy?

wtcannonjr

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2015, 09:34:09 AM »
If it blocks the opponents strategy better than not waiting?

Generally waiting time is spent investing in defenses first and then a economic engine that will create offensive advantage in the mid and late game. If your mage has more defensive abilities, then it might play to a strength.
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exid

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2015, 11:53:09 AM »
If it blocks the opponents strategy better than not waiting?

Generally waiting time is spent investing in defenses first and then a economic engine that will create offensive advantage in the mid and late game. If your mage has more defensive abilities, then it might play to a strength.

i see that... what i don't see is with which book against which book should use it....
have you got any concrete example?

Gogolski

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2015, 12:28:02 PM »
I think waiting -in general- is a good way to loose.

However, there are/must be a few good match-ups where waiting 'kind of hurts' your opponent, like using Meditation Amulet to gain mana against a wizard with Gate to Voltari, while your own spawnpoint does your casting for you.

But then again, waiting will have your opponent knocking at your door with a giant sledgehammer in no time and that is generally bad for your door...


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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2015, 01:07:19 PM »
Thanks for posting this. I've been thinking about strategies non stop for the past month and your thread brings up some good questions.

"Waiting" may not be the correct term here, although it does get the point across. I think the main question to ask is, "What are you waiting for?" Since Arena has one simple objective (defeating the opponent mage), your answer should revolve around that.

Here are some answers to the above question I thought of:
  • Waiting for you to die from ongoing damage.
  • Waiting for you to leave yourself defenseless so I can take you down in one fell swoop.
  • Waiting for you to over commit to one strategy that I have a simple solution to, so that I may overpower you in the end.

The thing behind all of these, is that they're not actually waiting. To use an analogy; They're not sitting back hoping that they'll get called for the job interview, they're going out there sending out other resume's, calling the company they applied for, they're doing other actions to improve their chances of getting that job.

In other words, the goal may seem like a ways off, but the only way the process is going to happen (at least faster) is by taking action. You asked about the beginning of the game
Is there a real advantage to wait at the begining of a MW game?
I think most would agree that's where your economy plays happen. In the mid game I think your waiting strategy would be a series of micro actions that either set up the kill, or set up the lock down (or whatever your strategy is). End game I think would be either using micro actions to remove your opponent's responses (dissolving that regrowth belt) or blowing your mana for the finisher.

Unless your soul purpose of not using an action is to save mana for a necessary play the next round, there is no reason to just sit back and wait. Poking at your opponent with small spells and actions to set up the kill is a very advanced technique that only the most patient players can accomplish. Even then you'll need to have decisive, effective moves. Hanma's Weighted Wizard, The Blasting Banker, a strangle Druid, and a CurseLock are all good examples.

Thoughts?  :)
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exid

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2015, 11:45:15 PM »
I think waiting -in general- is a good way to loose.
i'm affraid you're right...


Here are some answers to the above question I thought of:
  • Waiting for you to die from ongoing damage.
here you don't realy wait at the begining: you must have buit the ongoing damage system before you wait.
(but it's the only valuable waiting strattegy that i see in MW)

  • Waiting for you to leave yourself defenseless so I can take you down in one fell swoop.
here it's hard to forsee that this will happen... (beautiffull if you read your opponent's strattegy well!)

  • Waiting for you to over commit to one strategy that I have a simple solution to, so that I may overpower you in the end.
here it's hard to forsee that this will happen... (beautiffull if you read your opponent's strattegy well!)



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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 02:35:48 AM »
Just trying to think what the Mage Wars equivalent is to Dominion's 'silver test'? i.e whats the decent average move others can be assessed against.  In a way, doing nothing is probably it.  However, the range of options you have in MW is infinitely broader than in a Dominion spread, so along these lines, if you ask:

  • Could I do anything to increase my channeling
    Can I bring out a creature at 2-3 mana per damage dice or better 
    Can I increase my own or a creatures likelihood of doing more damage next turn
    Can I reduce the likelihood of myself or a creature dying this turn or next
    Can I improve my positioning strategically (get closer to bringing big damage, or avoiding it to myself)
    Estimating my opponents possible next move, is there anything I can do to negate it or make it less optimal for them

I don't think this encompasses everything, but it does make me wonder how often you'd want to do nothing considering all the things you 'could' do.





exid

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 03:24:15 AM »
If i put it differently, in some games there can be an advantage to prepare a big army that will go to battle all at once, or there can be an advantage to prepare a big defense before going to battle.

In some other  games this "waiting strattegy" is a must do (a fast-fighter looses every time).

But it seems to me that in MW it's allways better to fight with the first un-enhanced creature, and then cast an enhacement on it, or summon another creature that will join it, etc.

sdougla2

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 06:26:47 PM »
Tele-pit is the strategy that comes to mind when you mention waiting. You play big powerful, immobile creatures like Darkfenne Hydras, Iron Golems, and Devouring Jellies while setting up a method of locking down your opponent. Then you Teleport your opponent in and kill them before they can escape. Your opponent doesn't really want to directly engage you because your creatures are more mana efficient in a direct engagement. You still need to defend yourself from attack spells, but this strategy is best implemented by a Wizard anyway, and Voltaric Shield + armor and a Gargoyle Sentry or 2 helps a lot with that kind of thing.

There are other times when waiting is advantageous. If I have a big economic advantage, I would prefer to have a little time for that economy to generate resources before engaging my opponent if they'll give me the time. I'll use the Warlord as an example. If I play a Warlord with heavy economy (Barracks, 2 other outposts, Battle Forge, and Meditation Amulet), and my opponent is producing two thirds as many resources as I am, they are the one that will want to start fighting right away. If they'll let me sit back and build up 4-5 creatures before I'm ready to move out and engage them, I'm happy to keep building my incremental advantage.

Sending in creatures in isolation is a good way to get them killed for minimal return. I've seen this happen with a wide variety of creatures. So while this isn't an argument for waiting, it is an argument to be cautious of rushing. Sometimes the deliberate approach is better.
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Kaarin

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2015, 07:45:28 PM »
IMO goal for waiting strategy would be to conserve your resources while opponent is wasting theirs. That's why You need to make them waste resources first for your strategy to be successful. Other goal could be use of resources at similar rate (for example to counteract your enemy strategy) but having way to make something from nothing, so You will end up with more resources later.
Samara Tree Druid with 7 (or more with Academy) armor and healing 4 every turn could be considered waiting strategy.
Waiting strategy may be more viable in other games where threat from the enemy isn't so immediate like in MW (in 1st round QC teleport 2 and cast range 3 attack spell or run 2 and cast conjuration with range 2 attack). That's why You have to adapt to what your opponent is doing or force him into reacting to your actions. I would recommend waiting strategy only when your opponent is also going for that strategy, but You can outwait him.
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Arlemus

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Re: about waiting...
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2015, 11:06:59 PM »
If it blocks the opponents strategy better than not waiting?

Generally waiting time is spent investing in defenses first and then a economic engine that will create offensive advantage in the mid and late game. If your mage has more defensive abilities, then it might play to a strength.

i see that... what i don't see is with which book against which book should use it....
have you got any concrete example?

I think you just have to check the match-up, see which mage has the best potential to win late game, and then adapt according to what your opponent actually plays.

Generally, the more your opponent's mage can/does invest into later game advantage (via mana generating, etc), the sooner you need to stop them.  Or, if you have the investment advantage, the longer you should try to drag the game out.

Rough generalities, but I think most would agree.
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