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Author Topic: before/after or immediately before/after?  (Read 1292 times)

Kaarin

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before/after or immediately before/after?
« on: September 20, 2015, 06:29:13 PM »
When I started playing MW I assumed that whenever "before or after any friendly creature's action phase..." is stated on a card it was supposed to mean immediately before/after that action phase (just like it's in QuickCast's description). It wasn't until friend used Temple of Light and Hand of Bim-Shalla (or two HBS; it was long time ago) before his action phase that I got to know correct rule. I simply assumed that his use of ToL was before him using HBS, and not action phase in game terms.*

Why I'm bringing this up? Because soon (I hope so) we will get more conjurations with attacks (Ballista for example).
With current rules there will be a problem that a Wizard (or any other mage) could use Wizard's Tower (or any other conjuration with ranged attack), two Ballistas and QuickCast even before getting to Action Phase (it's doable even now with ToL and Orchid or Lotus; Druid can drop both Orchid and Lotus during deployment phase). I don't want Ballista to end up like HBS (which could be changed in simpler way, it's abilities turned into spells active till end of round; You can't target an object with a spell that's already affecting it). 
This could be avoided by rules clarification. By stating in Rules Supplement (or even directly in rules) that whenever before/after is written on a card it's supposed to be immediately before/after, abuse of some cards could be prevented. Of course this would mean that to use four ballistas and QC in the same round You would need to summon two creatures.

*It could simply be my knowledge (or rather lack of knowledge) of subtleties of English that made me assume that (e.g. Renaissance is after Middle Ages and later than Antiquity, but not after it).
PS. Please correct me when I do mistakes.
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Zuberi

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2015, 09:28:44 PM »
That is an interesting suggestion. I don't speak for arcane wonders, but I still want to thank you for feedback and trying to head off problems before they get out of hand. The burst damage that is possible with conjurations and attack spells is definitely something to keep an eye on.

I do also want to clarify something though that you might also be confused on. You can certainly target an object with a spell that is already affecting it. For example, I could cast two copies of Power Strike on a creature to grant it melee +4 if I wanted to. The only time you can't do this is when a spell or effect specifically says so, such as Battle Fury.

Zuberi

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 09:52:49 PM »
My partner just pointed out to me that what might have you confused is the duplicate object rules. You can't have the same object (enchantment, equipment, conjuration, or creature) attached to the same thing multiple times, but you can certainly have multiple copies affecting the same thing. For example, Enchanter's Wardstone is attached to a zone, and thus you can't have more than one in the same zone (also prevented by the zone exclusive trait in addition to the duplicate object rules) but it's effect is arena wide and you could have multiple wardstones protecting your enchantments. 3 wardstones, in different zones, would make it cost six extra mana for each enchantment your opponent wanted to destroy.

Note: creatures don't really count here because they aren't attached to anything. I just included them because they are objects and I didn't want to inadvertently cause added confusion by leaving them out of my list of objects.

Kaarin

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 01:58:57 PM »
It's quite big burst damage: 24 dice if Wizard decides to cast Hurl Boulder with both Wizard's Tower and QC. You could even cast unavoidable spell from WT first to break their Block/RA. 

Yes, I was thinking about attached objects (mainly enchantments and equipment). While I was writing that post I wasn't sure if You can cast Power Strike twice or more on single creature, but if You were to ask me about multiple conjurations like Enchanter's Wardstone or Tooth and Nail then I would be sure that they can affect single target more than once. Since Incantations aren't attached but only affecting that rule doesn't apply to them. So You're right, just changing HBS abilities to spells wouldn't help. There would be sentence stating restrictions of those spells needed.
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Borg

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2015, 09:05:12 AM »
Since these extra actions are usually generated by Conjurations wouldn't it make sense to change the rules in such a way that you can "activate" no more than 1 conjuration before and/or after an action phase ?

Actions are such a precious resource in MW that it doesn't take much explaining to see that this eventually could get out of hand.

With the above suggestion it would still be possible to have 4 actions in a row ( Action, QC and Conj Action before and after), I think that should be the max amount for 1 turn, anything more would become alarmingly unbalancing.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 09:08:15 AM by Borg »
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sIKE

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2015, 09:21:14 AM »
Once again that cat is out of the bag, that is why many of these are either mage exclusive and/or unique: Wizards Tower, or require more of something else to power up (Temple of Light), just broken and will be changed before released: Ballista, or uses a token and has a real weak attack otherwise and is zone exclusive.

I can tell you in general that the game designers and playtesters are well aware of this potential for abuse and work to make sure anything released along these lines are not game breaking. Along with that, the game testing process has improved along the way as we have gained experience and have lessons learned.

Just remember that your proposal would/could change/break already existing cards that have been released for the game and that these have been playtested and balanced with the existing rule set.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 06:30:16 PM by sIKE »
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Mystery

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Re: before/after or immediately before/after?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2015, 10:30:22 AM »
good some up of sIKE

honestly i played the wizard with ballista in last tourney so we all get to see that it should not see print in der current way. We'll be working on it