May 23, 2019, 06:27:08 PM

Author Topic: Poisoned Blood and Barksin  (Read 20179 times)

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 11:22:28 AM »
So then the problem is octgn automation. Upkeep costs automatically are put at the beginning of the phase, and since channeling is also automatic there's no space in between for revealing enchants. My opponent and I didn't realize that would be a problem. If we did, he would have regenerated before choosing whether to pay upkeep, after I had not revealed at the end of last round's final qc phase. But his wanting to not pay upkeep was because I revealed poisoned blood...

I'm starting to think that automation in online Mage Wars is like a deal with the devil. It whispers in your ear of easier games and less multitasking, but then gradually drains your ability and desire to play without it, making real life games even harder...

I think from now on I'm going to turn off all automations when I play at least for casual games.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 11:24:41 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2015, 11:39:25 AM »
So is it possible to set automation for some phases but not all? This might be a nice feature to have in an Options menu.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 02:32:15 PM »
I appologize for answering a couple of the questions within the bigger question and somehow avoiding the "big" question.

Ok, so to the original question about Barkskin. You can regenerate without paying Barkskin's upkeep. Those are two separate "upkeep effects" and as you control both and they affect your character you get to choose the order they go in.

Now once I say, "I'm regenerating 2 from Barkskin." There is no window for you to reveal enchantments. This is effectively a one step process and as there is no stack there is no FILO to try and cancel the healing with. Now, This is an event and should allow for enchantments to be revealed after. Basically if something just happened, you can reveal an enchantment after it. If there are steps to the process you can reveal between any of the steps of the process.

So Yes sIKE you were right, they couldn't stop the Regenerate in that fashion.

Hopefully this is more on point and what you need.
And revealing the Poison Blood was legal, even though it would not of effected the Regeneration?
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 02:35:26 PM »
Yes.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2015, 04:09:13 PM »
Okay, now I am confused and quite upset actually. Beforehand, we may have had a slightly messy issue with the use of the word "event" which is not clearly defined, but the 4th edition rules seemed to clear up their obvious intent, which is how I always read them anyways. The line is now very clear that you can only reveal after a step, phase, or action. I do not take the list given below that as just a few examples. It is an exhaustive review of the times you can reveal, which then gives an example of each of these times.

There is no place that describes upkeep effects as "steps," "actions," or "phases." They thus do not qualify for allowing enchantments to be revealed between them. You have to reveal before the Upkeep Phase or after it. You can not reveal during the upkeep phase, as there are no steps or actions occurring within it to allow a reveal, and Laddinfance stating contrary to this is very upsetting to me. There is absolutely nothing in any of the document to support this, and I really dislike it coming out of the blue.

The Upkeep Phase is supposed to be part of the "bookkeeping" of the game. It's not the part where the players go back and forth screwing each other over with enchantments. Allowing enchantments to be revealed during it will give a huge advantage to the person with Initiative because EVERYTHING that occurs during it would be a timing issue because there ARE NO STEPS to resolving these effects. They are all trying to happen simultaneously. They only get applied one at a time because the game is made to be procedural and we need to do so to figure out exactly how things play out.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 04:15:33 PM by Zuberi »

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2015, 04:18:12 PM »

Okay, now I am confused and quite upset actually. Beforehand, we may have had a slightly messy issue with the use of the word "event" which is not clearly defined, but the 4th edition rules seemed to clear up their obvious intent, which is how I always read them anyways. The line is now very clear that you can only reveal after a step, phase, or action. I do not take the list given below that as just a few examples. It is an exhaustive review of the times you can reveal, which then gives an example of each of these times.

There is no place that describes upkeep effects as "steps," "actions," or "phases." They thus do not qualify for allowing enchantments to be revealed between them. You have to reveal before the Upkeep Phase or after it. You can not reveal during the upkeep phase, as there are no steps or actions occurring within it to allow a reveal, and Laddinfance stating contrary to this is very upsetting to me. There is absolutely nothing in any of the document to support this, and I really dislike it coming out of the blue.

The Upkeep Phase is supposed to be part of the "bookkeeping" of the game. It's not the part where the players go back and forth screwing each other over with enchantments. Allowing enchantments to be revealed during it will give a huge advantage to the person with Initiative because EVERYTHING that occurs during it would be a timing issue because there ARE NO STEPS to resolving these effects. They are all trying to happen simultaneously. They only get applied one at a time because the game is made to be procedural and we need to do so to figure out exactly how things play out.

Um...yeah that's actually a REALLY good point.

...How did we not notice that?
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2015, 04:24:44 PM »
I understand Zuberi, as I was upset with how you described it. It has always been my understanding since I started playing back in 2012 that I could reveal an enchantment at any time during the game. Though it couldn't effect anything in the past nor interrupt something already in progress.

Yes I have played it where you can affect players during upkeep or any other point in the game. Matter of fact I have played games where I only had enough mana to bind an Enchantment during the Actions Phase and banked on the fact that I would have mana after Channeling to reveal the card during the Upkeep Phase. I know your argument would be that I could do that at the end of the Channeling Phase, but not at the beginning of the Upkeep phase, which still makes no sense to me. Why would a mage be able to finish resolving the Matrix of an Enchantment one second 3 (a place holder for any Game Phase ) but not second 4 (a place holder for any Game Phase following the previous Game Phase)?

The spell is already cast and bound what timing are you talking about? I (the player with Initiative) choose to Regenerate my Unicorn before I apply Burns. That is timing! You (the player without Initiative) choose to reveal Poisoned Blood before I say I am going to Regenerate my Unicorn. That is timing. This is how I have always played....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2015, 04:34:00 PM »
The regeneration and the burning are happening at the same time. The player simply decides whether or not that may result in the creatures death by deciding the order to resolve them in. Choosing how to resolve the Upkeep Phase does not change the fact the entire Upkeep Phase is a SINGLE event with it's effects happening simultaneously, and enchantments can not interrupt something in progress.

It would be similar to wanting to reveal an enchantment after taking damage but before applying the effects of an attack roll. They both happen at the same time.

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2015, 04:53:34 PM »
I could go into a long story about why we originally decided when to allow enchantments to be revealed. I'm not going to. I responded the way that I did because in my work on the 4th printing rules we changed the text that to include the addition of all the steps and phases. We did not make that change as a limiter but as a clarifier about how broad the scope really was. In any complex system the efforts to make things simple and understandable often have unforeseen consequences. This is one of those times.

Right now I could only tell you how I play. But I don't think that's of much interest to anyone. Bryan is on his way to Germany right now, and so he cannot answer this question until he returns. Right now it would seem he's the one who can answer this.

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2015, 04:55:34 PM »
At work, away from rules. Please provide cite for upkeep being simultaneous. Thought the rules were pretty explicit: when disputed, things happen in order determined by player with initiative.

Didn't think mage wars *did* simultaneous, just no legal opportunity to reveal.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2015, 05:22:40 PM »
Things are always resolved one at a time, but that doesn't mean they aren't representing simultaneous occurrences. If you step into a zone with multiple Enter Zone Effects, they all occur the moment you enter that zone even though you have to resolve them one at a time. When an attack is made against you, the Damage and Effects are occurring at the same time, even though you may have to resolve them one at a time (see Corrode). The same is true for Upkeep. They are all happening at the same time, you just have to resolve them one at a time to make sense out of it within the rules. However, these simultaneous events do not allow a chance to reveal enchantments despite them being resolved one at a time, unless they have substeps to them. That's a big reason for grouping them into phases and steps to begin with. A phase or step tells you "this stuff is all happening right now." They tell you what is happening simultaneously and what isn't by telling you what can be interrupted and what can't.

Now, if the different effects during upkeep count as steps, then that would change matters, but there is no place that they are ever referred to as steps. Up until this point, steps seemed to be a very clearly defined term with very specific meaning. Everything that was a step was clearly labeled as such. Now it seems like we can call anything we want to a step. We no longer have any clear rule for what can be interrupted by enchantments and what can't, because we get to arbitrarily decide what counts as a step. Does rolling the burn die and applying the burn damage count as two different steps? Does rolling each individual die during an attack count as different steps?

Before we had very clear rules for what could happen when, and now it is all subjective and open to argument. It would be a rules nightmare to try and clarify each and every possibility if we destroy the framework outlined in the rules and open "step" up to subjective interpretation.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2015, 05:28:37 PM »
On the plus side, if we can break things down arbitrarily, it will open up a lot of things in Academy that some of us have lamented. It doesn't matter that rolling dice and applying damage has been condensed into a single step if you can still reveal enchantments between the two.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »
Clearly you see issues where I don't. I do not believe that everything happens simultaneously and we just order them to make logical sense to us.

For example Burns. During the Upkeep phase you have to roll the Effect die to see if the "Fire goes out". You can also Regenerate (you have to you don't have choice it has to happen). You can choose  to Regenerate before or after the Burn roll. How could this be if everything happened "simultaneously"? My creature with Regeneration and a Burn but no Damage, I decide that the Burn happens first, then Regenerate if needed. My second Creature with Regeneration and a Burn with 1 Life left, I decided to go with the Regeneration first, then the Burns. You process things sequentially just like you do in any phase, and while Creature A runs around the Arena screaming while on Fire (2 damage from Burns), and Creature B drops and rolls (Burn Removed). Does that happen at the same exact second just because we are it a single point in time? I think not.

All the while you opponent is watching your creature running around the Arena screaming whist on fire and decides to reveal a Poisoned Blood Enchantment attached to him before your decide to check if the Fire is going to go out. That check is an event. There are dice rolled and potential damage is applied. As long as he choose to do that before you Regenerate that is the event, then the Finite Life trait would prevent that from happening.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2015, 05:45:37 PM »
On the plus side, if we can break things down arbitrarily, it will open up a lot of things in Academy that some of us have lamented. It doesn't matter that rolling dice and applying damage has been condensed into a single step if you can still reveal enchantments between the two.
If it is a single event or step then you can not interrupt it after it has happened. In Academy once the dice are rolled you cannot reveal an Enchantment before you apply the damage and have it effect the roll or the application of damage.

I wish that these rules were written as such:
Quote
You may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action, step, or phase, even if it is your opponent's turn!" Enchantments may be revealed at any point during a Phase, though it cannot affect an event that occurred before it was revealed.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2496
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2015, 05:58:46 PM »
Quote from: sIKE
Does that happen at the same exact second just because we are it a single point in time? I think not.

Yes. A single point in time means at the same time.

Quote from: sIKE
f it is a single event or step then you can not interrupt it after it has happened.

The problem is we no longer know what qualifies as a single event or step. Before today, the Upkeep Phase was a single event, but now it can apparently be broken down into smaller chunks. What's preventing us from breaking other things down into smaller pieces as well? How small of a piece can we get? What defines it? We don't know! It's all up to the imagination! With this ruling there is no way for us to know what can be interrupted with an enchantment and what can't. Anything can be made into a valid argument, and shutting those arguments down individually is not practical.