October 17, 2019, 01:07:28 PM

Author Topic: Poisoned Blood and Barksin  (Read 22129 times)

wtcannonjr

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2015, 09:20:45 PM »
I personally think action is a bit unnecessary since all actions either have steps or immediately precede the Creature Action Phase ending. I think it would be better surmised as after a step, phase, or activation since revealing after an activation is clearly allowed by the bullet points on when you can reveal, and is neither a step, phase, or action itself.


An observation - I think that bullet point is referencing page 11. This page describes the sequence of an Action Phase without calling each increment a step.

Keeping action in the definition might be needed for future rules. For example, some actions do not involve steps like the Guard action. It may be possible that future actions or special actions without steps will be sequenced together. The current wording would then fit this potential sequence and allow a reveal between the two actions. All hypothetical at this point but fun to consider as a possibility.
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Zuberi

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2015, 10:08:12 PM »
An observation - I think that bullet point is referencing page 11. This page describes the sequence of an Action Phase without calling each increment a step.

Keeping action in the definition might be needed for future rules. For example, some actions do not involve steps like the Guard action. It may be possible that future actions or special actions without steps will be sequenced together. The current wording would then fit this potential sequence and allow a reveal between the two actions. All hypothetical at this point but fun to consider as a possibility.

Truth.

Kelanen

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2015, 04:14:22 PM »
So.. the new ruling is clear, and makes it explicit you can't use Adramelechs Touch as we have been because Events are no longer relevant.

The fact you can't reveal and use Adramalech's Touch in response to a dice roll, but can reveal and use Akiro's Favour in response to a dice roll is unintuitive. I understand why, but I definitely understand people ruling them both the same.

Zuberi

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2015, 05:51:14 AM »
I haven't changed my position on things, and so maybe should keep quiet because this ended on a positive note for what I believe is correct, but I feel obligated to mention that this hasn't really been resolved. Yes, we found a section of rules that seems to define an event as a step or action, which I jumped on because it suits my purposes. However, in the upkeep section of the rules it also mentions that the upkeep phase does involve events. Even though that phase does not contain steps or actions, and that's what it seems like an event is. It is about as clear as mud.


-credit to sIKE for pointing this out to me in conversation.

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2015, 06:34:09 AM »
So.. the new ruling is clear
new rulling? i didn't see any here...
and in the new rulles i read this morning, it's written: "after any step, phase or action", what is clear (nothing during upkeep phase), but then there is an example that adds  another moment: "after a creature is activated" (it's no step, no phase, no action!), so... not so clear...

The fact you can't reveal and use Adramalech's Touch in response to a dice roll, but can reveal and use Akiro's Favour in response to a dice roll is unintuitive. I understand why, but I definitely understand people ruling them both the same.
it's not unintuitive, it's unplayable unless one is the rulle an the other is specificiate on the card!

Kharhaz

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2015, 01:58:48 PM »
I haven't changed my position on things, and so maybe should keep quiet because this ended on a positive note for what I believe is correct, but I feel obligated to mention that this hasn't really been resolved. Yes, we found a section of rules that seems to define an event as a step or action, which I jumped on because it suits my purposes. However, in the upkeep section of the rules it also mentions that the upkeep phase does involve events. Even though that phase does not contain steps or actions, and that's what it seems like an event is. It is about as clear as mud.


-credit to sIKE for pointing this out to me in conversation.

I'm with you 100% on this one

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2015, 11:55:45 PM »
I'm not satisfied with this topic yet...
have we got a unique interpretation of the 4th rules about revealing enchantments?

Laddinfance

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2015, 08:03:45 AM »
I'm going to be in Dallas next week, and get to speak to Bryan in person. I'm planning to bring this up. But in the meantime the 4th printing rules are completely playable.

ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2015, 08:30:52 AM »
Right now the best case I can make for revealing enchantments in the upkeep involves a hypothetical: if there were a mandatory reveal (red) enchantment that said, "When you take any damage, reveal CARDNAME, and DO EFFECT," that card would surely be triggered during Upkeep by the effect of Ghoul Rot. And if you can reveal triggered mandatory enchantments I would expect you to be able to reveal all triggered enchantments, and if that, then all enchantments in general, since there are no special steps that allow mandatory reveals but not others.
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ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2015, 10:30:14 PM »
I'm unsure about this one, but...
Per Shad0w in this rules thread mega question when the last Banish marker comes off a creature, it will trigger traps as it returns to the zone.

This is only possible if Enchantments can be revealed during Upkeep.
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Zuberi

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2015, 11:34:35 PM »
I will assist you further, kich. Block is a Mandatory that gets revealed during the Avoid Attack Step, and Nullify is a Mandatory that gets revealed during the Counter Spell Step.

I believe that these are examples of the Magic Rule where specific text overrides general rules and a person still can not voluntarily reveal during a Step or Phase. Otherwise, if we went with your opinion that this possibility allows for ANY enchantment to be revealed during a step or phase, we run back into the problem of how to subdivide steps and phases to prevent people from declaring ANYTHING as an event and completely negating having limitations on when you can reveal. People would be able to call anything an event and reveal at any time.

Even sIKE was against allowing reveals during a step, stating that "A step is a division of an event, so can not find an event inside of a step."

Meanwhile, with Banish, the traps triggering during upkeep aren't really a special occasion. A teleport follows the steps of a Move Action with the exception of skipping the Walls step. This allows for traps to be triggered during the Entering Zone Effects Step when dealing with Banish. Thus, regardless of what phase it is, all traps get revealed during the same step following very specific rules which trump any general rules we may have.

I'm also not certain if a creature returning from banishment would indeed trigger traps. It's not specifically stated that the return trip isn't a Teleport, but page 9 of the Domination rules do say that Astral Anchor can not stop the return trip which creates doubt as to whether or not it meets the requirements for triggering entering zone effects, as detailed on page 9 of the Rules Supplement. Basically "return" does not necessarily mean "teleport". This is something that deserves an official statement.

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2015, 11:50:19 PM »
I will assist you further, kich. Block is a Mandatory that gets revealed during the Avoid Attack Step, and Nullify is a Mandatory that gets revealed during the Counter Spell Step.

I believe that these are examples of the Magic Rule where specific text overrides general rules and a person still can not voluntarily reveal during a Step or Phase. Otherwise, if we went with your opinion that this possibility allows for ANY enchantment to be revealed during a step or phase, we run back into the problem of how to subdivide steps and phases to prevent people from declaring ANYTHING as an event and completely negating having limitations on when you can reveal. People would be able to call anything an event and reveal at any time.

Even sIKE was against allowing reveals during a step, stating that "A step is a division of an event, so can not find an event inside of a step."

Meanwhile, with Banish, the traps triggering during upkeep aren't really a special occasion. A teleport follows the steps of a Move Action with the exception of skipping the Walls step. This allows for traps to be triggered during the Entering Zone Effects Step when dealing with Banish. Thus, regardless of what phase it is, all traps get revealed during the same step following very specific rules which trump any general rules we may have.

I'm also not certain if a creature returning from banishment would indeed trigger traps. It's not specifically stated that the return trip isn't a Teleport, but page 9 of the Domination rules do say that Astral Anchor can not stop the return trip which creates doubt as to whether or not it meets the requirements for triggering entering zone effects, as detailed on page 9 of the Rules Supplement. Basically "return" does not necessarily mean "teleport". This is something that deserves an official statement.

if the return from banish triggers a trap that attacks the creature, there's steps during this attack, alowing every body to reveal enchantements on any object, playing a totally different upkeep phase???
this rule problem is hudge!!!

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2015, 05:48:20 AM »
Banish's return is not a teleport. We are not told what steps it follows. If pressed, I would probably resort to the movement steps that apply to it, skipping the walls and leaving zone steps, but that's just a guess. Shad0w's ruling potentially predates the formal codification of movement steps, and may or may not be superseded.
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ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2015, 05:53:24 AM »
Quote from: Exid
if the return from banish triggers a trap that attacks the creature, there's steps during this attack, alowing every body to reveal enchantements on any object, playing a totally different upkeep phase???
this rule problem is hudge!!!

Not huge: there's precident from the movement steps with passage attacks, and there's a plan for normalizing those rules.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2015, 06:11:05 AM »
Quote from: Exid
if the return from banish triggers a trap that attacks the creature, there's steps during this attack, alowing every body to reveal enchantements on any object, playing a totally different upkeep phase???
this rule problem is hudge!!!

Not huge: there's precident from the movement steps with passage attacks, and there's a plan for normalizing those rules.

i say it's huge because there's a lot of situations (rare but a lot) i never think of, in which to reveal an enchantment is problematic. in the middle of a good game, such a situation could ruin it.
i hope laddinfance comes back from dallas with a sollution!