December 06, 2019, 09:44:41 PM

Author Topic: Poisoned Blood and Barksin  (Read 22746 times)

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #120 on: November 23, 2015, 11:17:32 PM »
... in the end he had said that we should stick with the 4th printing rules.

Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

Please confirm: It is allowable to reveal an enchantment after the Upkeep Phase at the start of the Action Phase, correct? I am think that there may be some that I would want to reveal before my opponent gets in the first quick cast.

yes.
after a phase is in the 4th rules.

ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2015, 05:47:00 AM »
Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

What happens to mandatory reveal enchantments that trigger from events without steps if that event happens to occur in Upkeep?
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jacksmack

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2015, 05:54:40 AM »
Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

What happens to mandatory reveal enchantments that trigger from events without steps if that event happens to occur in Upkeep?

then the text on the card overrides the standard rules just like its the case with block and nullify.

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2015, 06:19:30 AM »
Basically, no you cannot reveal an enchantment in the Upkeep Phase, unless you are responding to something that legally allows the reveal of enchantments.

What happens to mandatory reveal enchantments that trigger from events without steps if that event happens to occur in Upkeep?

then the text on the card overrides the standard rules just like its the case with block and nullify.

i agree with jacksmack's answer.

are there such enchantments?

Laddinfance

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #124 on: November 24, 2015, 08:37:25 AM »
If you had a mandatory enchantment "trigger" then you would be allowed to reveal it. This would be a case of a card allowing (or in this case requiring) something that the rules do not.

DaveW

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2015, 07:47:02 PM »
This ruling covers The Ready Stage. Revealing Enchantments in the Action Stage remains the same. So before and after any Creatures Action.

As Laddin said, we did talk with Brian and this did change with the v4 rules to clean up many issues such as the one posed in the OP.

We did talk about Events and getting that all cleaned up along with the possibility of adding "Beginning" to the possibilities. But that is for the future.

OK, so I don't have the 4th edition rules. Only before and after a Creature's action phase? Not after deployment... not after quickcast... only related to Creature actions. Do I get this right?

I have to ask as this will drastically change the way we play. Thanks.
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sIKE

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2015, 07:54:27 PM »
During the Ready Stage (Initiative, Reset, Channel, Upkeep, Planning, Deployment Phases) you may only reveal an Enchantment at the end of one of these Phases. During the Action Stage things stay the same: Before or After an Action or between Steps of an "what do we call it? an event" Attack/Move/Casting sequence.
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Zuberi

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #127 on: November 24, 2015, 08:46:14 PM »
Sike is making an unnecessary distinction. Both  stages are the same. The fourth edition rule is that you may reveal after a phase, step, or action, as well as activations (which may be what is meant by action because it otherwise seems superfluous). You can download the fourth edition rules from the websites resource section.

ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #128 on: November 24, 2015, 08:47:20 PM »
are there such enchantments?


No such card has yet been included in a set, as far as I know, with the possible exception of Teleport Trap.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 08:50:25 PM by ringkichard »
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sIKE

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #129 on: November 24, 2015, 09:32:34 PM »
Sike is making an unnecessary distinction. Both  stages are the same. The fourth edition rule is that you may reveal after a phase, step, or action, as well as activations (which may be what is meant by action because it otherwise seems superfluous). You can download the fourth edition rules from the websites resource section.
What? This is crazy! You can not reveal an Enchantment at the beginning of any of the Ready Stage Phases only at the end, you pointed this out early in this thread. During the Actions Stage you can reveal before or after and Actions Phase. This is a fine distinction, none the less there is one. I can reveal an Enchantment on a creature before the first Creatures Action is taken in the Action Phases.
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exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #130 on: November 24, 2015, 11:17:03 PM »
are there such enchantments?


No such card has yet been included in a set, as far as I know, with the possible exception of Teleport Trap.

there's no movement during upkeep so no trap trigger!

exid

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #131 on: November 24, 2015, 11:21:11 PM »
Sike is making an unnecessary distinction. Both  stages are the same. The fourth edition rule is that you may reveal after a phase, step, or action, as well as activations (which may be what is meant by action because it otherwise seems superfluous). You can download the fourth edition rules from the websites resource section.
What? This is crazy! You can not reveal an Enchantment at the beginning of any of the Ready Stage Phases only at the end, you pointed this out early in this thread. During the Actions Stage you can reveal before or after and Actions Phase. This is a fine distinction, none the less there is one. I can reveal an Enchantment on a creature before the first Creatures Action is taken in the Action Phases.

4th rules are clear: AFTER step, phase, action
and, in the example, it adds: AFTER activation

you can reveal before the first action is taken:
after the quickcast phase
or
after the first activation

Zuberi

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2015, 01:52:58 AM »
What? This is crazy! You can not reveal an Enchantment at the beginning of any of the Ready Stage Phases only at the end, you pointed this out early in this thread. During the Actions Stage you can reveal before or after and Actions Phase. This is a fine distinction, none the less there is one. I can reveal an Enchantment on a creature before the first Creatures Action is taken in the Action Phases.

This fine distinction prevents you from revealing any enchantments before the Initiative Phase of the very first round of the game, when no enchantments exist. After that point, every "before a phase" is also an "after a phase". Before the first Action Phase of a round is the same as after the first Quick Cast Phase, so the distinction is moot. Before the Upkeep Phase is the same as after the Channeling Phase, before the Initiative Phase is the same as after the Final Quickcast Phase, and so forth.

You can't reveal during a Phase, unless you're revealing after a step or activation. Which may be what is causing the confusion. The part about revealing after an activation allows you to reveal after initiating an Action Phase, and no other Phase has this same opportunity, which is probably what you're referring to I'm guessing. Regardless, "before" and "beginning" are too different words and we need to make a distinction.

I personally believe after consideration that the whole "after an action" part is in reference to revealing after activating a creature, which is often referred to as taking an action with that creature even if you end up doing nothing with the creature. Otherwise, it is a superfluous rule as all actions currently either have steps or signal the end of the Action Phase, and thus already allow reveals afterwards without any special mention. Granted, this could change if new actions are introduced in the future, but that seems doubtful. Also, I just like the tidyness of summing things up as "after a phase, step, or activation" since it gets rid of both a superfluous word and includes an opportunity that we all agree exists, without having to reference examples, so I just like to think that such is what they meant.

ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2015, 05:43:00 AM »
there's no movement during upkeep so no trap trigger!

Unless returning from a Banish triggers traps. This is somewhat doubtful, but has been ruled proper play by Shad0w.

More importantly, it's an example of why you should never assume something can't happen. There are no attacks during movement (except when there are). There is no opportunity to reveal an enchantment during the reveal of another enchantment (except when there is). There's nothing you can do with an incapacitated creature (except that there was), etc.

Murphy's Law says, "If something can go wrong it will go wrong." This is often taken as a pithy expression of pessimism and the perversity of fate, but it's also a very useful design principle: the example I always think of is that if there's two ways to connect a plug to a socket, and one of those ways is wrong (upside down), eventually someone will do it. So, to combat this is, we use polarized plugs that can only fit one way. By making the failure mode impossible we prevent the failure. Conversely, we have to assume that everything that we haven't directly made impossible will happen, sooner or later.

So, for example, if a curse were printed that caused a creature to teleport randomly in the Upkeep, that would count as movement, and so would trigger traps. Moving isn't forbidden in the Upkeep, so it's sensible to assume that can happen, even if you don't immediately see how.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 06:05:59 AM by ringkichard »
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ringkichard

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Re: Poisoned Blood and Barksin
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2015, 05:45:03 AM »
If you had a mandatory enchantment "trigger" then you would be allowed to reveal it. This would be a case of a card allowing (or in this case requiring) something that the rules do not.

Works for me!
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