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Author Topic: Theory-crafting: what do you think the Siren will be like?  (Read 2944 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Theory-crafting: what do you think the Siren will be like?
« on: December 12, 2015, 11:03:44 AM »
So, I was thinking some more about the live chat between Aaron and Arcane Duels. I was thinking about how every single Mage we've had so far has been a land-dweller and the siren is the first Mage we've seen that's (presumably) from under the sea. In the chat Aaron said that they had trouble deciding between dark/water training and mind/water training for the siren. While certain spells like the Kraken would undoubtedly not be mind school, certain spells that already exist like charm and sleep at first seem too fitting for a siren. And yet you wouldn't want a Siren using thoughtspore. But you also wouldn't want the siren wearing a demonhide armor, and a lot of level 1 dark spells probably won't work with her either, such as hellfire trap, wildfire imp and and acolyte of the bog queen. But the siren clearly wants psychic subtype spells! How else is her siren song supposed to lure her enemies to where she wants them to go if it's not psychic? And yet the psychic spells in the mind school include control-subtype spells like mind control, and now that I think about it charm probably doesn't work for her because it's a control spell, and she's probably more likely to want enemies to attack her rather than forcing them not to. Which means she probably doesn't want to put anything to sleep either. If you take out sleep, mass sleep, mind control and charm, you're left with only four psychic spells: clear mind, mind shield, pacify and bloodthirsty strike. Two mind school psychic spells, one holy psychic spell and one dark psychic spell. Since the Paladin vs Siren set already has a holy Mage, that leaves dark. The only problem with this is that even quite a few level one dark creatures just don't make sense with a siren. Like the firebrand imp, for instance. Then again, all mages are technically capable of casting spells from any school, and hellfire trap is a dark spell and not a fire spell. Maybe if the terrain spells alter the subtypes of attacks made in their zone, then the Siren would be able to summon level 1 demons and use hellfire trap without any problems, especially since traps probably fit her style, it's just the hellfire that's the issue. Simply put fire doesn't and shouldn't work in water, but steam and boiling water could.

What do you think?
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Kaarin

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Re: Theory-crafting: what do you think the Siren will be like?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 10:44:52 PM »
Disclaimer: I haven't watched interview with Aaron.

Even though Siren is trained in two schools, this training could be selective. We already have selective forbidden spells (creatures for Forcemaster), so why not selective training?
She could be trained even in aquatic creatures only (I want at least some of them to be from Nature school just like birds which aren't from Air school) with other types of spells coming from two schools she's trained in.
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And yet you wouldn't want a Siren using thoughtspore. But you also wouldn't want the siren wearing a demonhide armor
It's like saying that You wouldn't want a Beastmaster using Kralathor or Necromancer using Demonhide Armor and Serctarus.
What if Kraken is water demon (I would love to see demons of elements other than fire) and not just mutated octopus?
In many folklores a lot of water creatures (often called demons) were undead or spirits of people who died in water. I would consider such creatures to be in Dark school. Is Siren supposed to command those too? On spoiled art there were some undead behind her.
Acolyte of Bog Queen is a cleric so could be used for some kind of water temple (both Altar of Skulls and Temple of Asyra don't specify school of friendly cleric).
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use hellfire trap without any problems, especially since traps probably fit her style, it's just the hellfire that's the issue. Simply put fire doesn't and shouldn't work in water
Fire can work underwater if it has oxygen source and high enough temperature. Thermite can burn and torpedoes can explode underwater. Remember that's no ordinary fire, but hellfire from magic trap.
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Which means she probably doesn't want to put anything to sleep either.
Why not? Sleeping victim is easier to suck lifeforce from or drown so You can eat its meat. Sirens were thought to be predators.
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How else is her siren song supposed to lure her enemies to where she wants them to go if it's not psychic? And yet the psychic spells in the mind school include control-subtype spells like mind control, and now that I think about it charm probably doesn't work for her because it's a control spell, and she's probably more likely to want enemies to attack her rather than forcing them not to.
Singing wasn't just to get a fool closer. It was used to lure ships on rocks too. It was just a mean to get food. So it's not wrong to use it to get sailors fight each other over Siren's beauty. Charm is good too if You want to play with your food without risk of being stabbed or shot.
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Re: Theory-crafting: what do you think the Siren will be like?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2015, 12:44:27 AM »
I also haven't seen the interview, but I think most of the perceived problems aren't only avoidable by restricting what the siren can do. I think a more flexible way of approaching the perceived issues is by considering what she wants to do. What I mean by this, suppose the siren has her own unique spells that fill in a niche similar enough to hellfire trap yet more in line with her own range of intended thematic play styles. If a siren mage player really decides that hellfire trap would work better they can do that fairly easily, but the player may be incentivized to play another way.

This doesn't only need to be accomplished by making similar cards, but by making a play style different enough that the cards which seem more thematically unique are generally preferable for use in tandem with powerful class only cards and the mage ability. We can already see this with the Warlock and Necromancer. The few cards that the necromancer have that synergize with zombies or skeletons make it so that he would choose to use them even if the Warlock would not despite their similarly low spell point cost.

I haven't actually taken a look at anything regarding the new classes, but given the success in this regard in the past, I'm not too concerned. My overall point is, theme shouldn't necessarily limit what a mage can do, just direct a unique way of playing that compliments the theme. I hope that helps ease some concern.
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Re: Theory-crafting: what do you think the Siren will be like?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2015, 08:03:53 AM »
As I recall from mythology the sirens spell was carried by her song through the air so I could see a case for water and air training. Her exclusive spells sound like they need to be Siren Only to keep her unique from other Mind mages.
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