September 16, 2019, 09:47:09 AM

Author Topic: joined strength  (Read 10991 times)

exid

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joined strength
« on: January 09, 2016, 02:46:44 PM »
how does it work?

is the 1 damage dealt to the animal, and then healed and dealt to the beastmaster? (problem with finite life on the animal... and with the death of the animal)
or is the 1 damage dealt directly to the beastmaster? (no problem  :))

RomeoXero

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2016, 03:05:29 PM »
One damage goes directly to the Beastmaster and reduces the total damage dealt to the creature
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exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2016, 03:13:20 PM »
thanks!

WTFGamer

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 01:30:16 AM »
One damage goes directly to the Beastmaster and reduces the total damage dealt to the creature

So by that logic, would an attack by the Rod of Arcanum that only did 1 damage after any armor result in a Beastmaster loss of mana?

Joined Strength says "Whenever it is attacked and receives damage...".

Which way does this coin flip. land?

Boocheck

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 02:15:36 AM »
(cant wait for Academy cards to be avilable via Card database :) )

Rod of Arcanum - When this attack damages an enemy Non-Mage creature, that creaturs controller loses 1 mana (if he has any to lose).

Joined Strenght - Whenever it is attacked and receives damage you must transfer 1 of that damage to your mage.

First - There is Critical damage and Normal damage. Normal damage is reduced by armor so if you rolled 2 normal damage and oponent have 2 armor, you not deal any damage and Rod of Arcanum will not activate its ability.

Second - You hit enemy non-mage creature for 1 damage (-1 life) - Condition of Rod of Arcanum was just met and Beasmaster have to lose 1 mana. Then Joined Strength is activated and that damage goes to Beastmaster instead. Joined strength cannot be activated unless that creature recieves any damage. I think the word "transfer" is a main key here. If you want to transfer something, you need to FROM to WHERE and if that damage was not on that creature, you would not have the FROM condition met.

Hope i make sense :)
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exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 02:24:20 AM »
Second - You hit enemy non-mage creature for 1 damage (-1 life) - Condition of Rod of Arcanum was just met and Beasmaster have to lose 1 mana. Then Joined Strength is activated and that damage goes to Beastmaster instead. Joined strength cannot be activated unless that creature recieves any damage. I think the word "transfer" is a main key here. If you want to transfer something, you need to FROM to WHERE and if that damage was not on that creature, you would not have the FROM condition met.

i don't agree! if the unique damage point goes directly to the BM, the rod's ability doesn't trigger and the BM doesn't loose mana.
(and if the damage goes first on the creature and is then transfered, it modifies RomeoXero's answer to my first question)

Zuberi

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 02:50:19 AM »
Since it is not available in the database, here is the effect text of the two cards:
Quote from: Joined Strength
This creature gains Melee +1. Whenever it is attacked and receives damage you must transfer 1 of that damage to your mage instead. If this creature is destroyed you may pay 1 mana to move Joined Strength to a new target in your zone.
Quote from: Rod of the Arcanum
When this attack damages an enemy Non-Mage creature, that creature's controller loses 1 mana (if he has any to lose). If this Mage is level 5 or higher, Rod of the Arcanum rolls an additional attack die.

Now, the key thing here is that you are transferring 1 point of damage instead of the creature receiving it. I interpret this to mean, like RomeoXero, that the damage is dealt directly to the Beastmaster and the creature never  experiences it at all. Since the creature never takes the damage, Rod of the Arcanum's mana drain does not trigger.

For timing purposes, this all occurs during the Apply Damage and Effects step. During this step, Joined Strength triggers changing where you apply the damage to. Then, since the creature didn't take any damage, Rod of the Arcanum fails to trigger.

Boocheck

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 02:59:42 AM »
For timing purposes, this all occurs during the Apply Damage and Effects step. During this step, Joined Strength triggers changing where you apply the damage to. Then, since the creature didn't take any damage, Rod of the Arcanum fails to trigger.

To transfer something from point A (creature) to point B (mage) that damage  must exist at some point on that creature. If there was word Redirect and not Transfer, i would have no problem. In this case, that damage will end up on mage but triggering conditions for Rod were also met.
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exid

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 03:40:34 AM »
To transfer something from point A (creature) to point B (mage) that damage  must exist at some point on that creature. If there was word Redirect and not Transfer, i would have no problem. In this case, that damage will end up on mage but triggering conditions for Rod were also met.

that was my point with my first question:
is the 1 damage dealt to the animal, and then healed and dealt to the beastmaster? (problem with finite life on the animal... and with the death of the animal)
or is the 1 damage dealt directly to the beastmaster? (no problem  :))
and i was answered the damage doesn't go to the creature... nobody denied.

Zuberi

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 09:39:31 AM »
Except that you are transferring the damage instead of the creature receiving it. When event A occurs instead of event B, it means that event B did not occur. You could also think of it in terms of transferring 1 point of incoming damage, thus you are transferring something from A to B. Incoming damage.

Now, with this interpretation the question does come up whether to apply just the creature's Armor to the damage calculation or to apply both the creature's and the Mage's. It's not perfectly clear, but I believe that only the creature's would apply. The card implies that the transfer occurs when you are at the point of the creature actually receiving the damage, and thus after armor calculations in my opinion.

Perhaps the wording could have been better done. I believe they chose to use the word transfer rather than redirect to make it clear that it occurs after armor calculations, but now we do have confusion about whether it is ever applied to the creature (and the first still isn't completely clarified). Close one door and open another.

If the damage wasn't transferred until after it was applied to the creature though, then we could have the creature dying before the transfer could occur. Thus negating the transfer, even if the transfer could have potentially saved the creature's life. This is most certainly not how I've been playing the card, but I can't say with 100% accuracy that it is incorrect, just that it is not how I believe to be correct.

My interpretation is again thus:
You begin the Damage and Effects Step.
You calculate the damage to be received after armor and such.
Your Mage receives 1 point of this damage instead of the creature, and the creature receives the rest.

If the creature doesn't actually take any damage, then anything that triggers off of it taking damage (such as Rod of the Arcanum) does not trigger. It's exactly the same as if your damage was prevented by Armor. It doesn't matter that the creature would have taken damage, because it didn't.

Laddinfance

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 09:44:42 AM »
Instead is a replacement. So, if you only dealt a single point of damage to a creature with joined strength, then it would never receive that damage as it's put on your Mage instead.

You only apply the armor for the creature and not also for your Mage.

Boocheck

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 09:52:30 AM »
I admit my defeat :)

(just the fact i was "arguing" with Zuberi was awesome enough :D  )
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iNano78

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 11:46:05 AM »
I agree with everything Zuberi said, except:

If the creature doesn't actually take any damage, then anything that triggers off of it taking damage (such as Rod of the Arcanum) does not trigger. It's exactly the same as if your damage was prevented by Armor. It doesn't matter that the creature would have taken damage, because it didn't.

In my opinion, damage was dealt, therefore Rod of Arcanum (or anything else that triggers on damage being dealt) does trigger.  The fact that the damage ended up on the mage is irrelevant; the attack caused damage.  This is different than armour, since armour cancels out the attack dice before you get to the "apply damage and effects" step (right?).

I can understand the interpretation that the attack didn't damage the creature, and that the mage (which is also a creature) was damaged by something other than the attack (e.g. the transfer, not the attack directly).  But as I see it, the creature was damaged, even if the damage was then transferred to the mage (before it appeared on the creature, so as not to kill a creature with 1 health point left before it was transferred).

Maybe I'm biased by how damage gets applied in other games, though, as this is how it would work in, say, X-wing Miniatures (e.g. a ship is "hit" = damaged, even if the damage is then transferred by an effect - like "Draw Their Fire" - which causing other effects like losing your "Stealth Device" even if the attacked ship ended up not taking any damage since it was transferred/redirected to another ship).
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Zuberi

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 04:03:31 PM »
@iNano78
Perhaps this shall satisfy you. If you look at page 25 of the Rulebook v4, you will see that by all definitions the attack did Hit the creature. This is true even if all blanks were rolled, or all damage was absorbed by armor, or the damage was transferred elsewhere. The creature was hit by the attack.

However, the trigger for Rod of the Arcanum is that it damage a Non-Mage creature. Mage Wars is very simple when it comes to determining things like this. If you put damage on something, then it took damage. If you don't, then it didn't. No non-mage creatures received any damage from the attack, therefore the Rod does not trigger even though it did successfully hit it's target. Hitting the target was not it's trigger condition. Since it did hit though, it will cause things like a Damage Barrier attack still, similar to the X-Wing ship losing stealth.

iNano78

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Re: joined strength
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 04:17:44 PM »
@iNano78
Perhaps this shall satisfy you. If you look at page 25 of the Rulebook v4, you will see that by all definitions the attack did Hit the creature. This is true even if all blanks were rolled, or all damage was absorbed by armor, or the damage was transferred elsewhere. The creature was hit by the attack.

However, the trigger for Rod of the Arcanum is that it damage a Non-Mage creature. Mage Wars is very simple when it comes to determining things like this. If you put damage on something, then it took damage. If you don't, then it didn't. No non-mage creatures received any damage from the attack, therefore the Rod does not trigger even though it did successfully hit it's target. Hitting the target was not it's trigger condition. Since it did hit though, it will cause things like a Damage Barrier attack still, similar to the X-Wing ship losing stealth.

OK, but look at the trigger for Joined Strength.  It says "... Whenever [this creature] is attacked and receives damage, you must transfer 1 of that damage to your Mage instead. ..."

If the creature wasn't dealt damage by the Rod, then no damage would have been transferred to the Mage.  For Joined Strength to transfer damage, the creature must have "received damage."  Otherwise, Joined Strength wouldn't trigger.   If Joined Strength triggered, then the creature must have received damage, and thus the Rod also triggers, since it has the same condition.  In other words, there must be a point where the creature received damage, at which time both the Rod and Joined Strength trigger, then the damage itself gets transferred to the Mage (when damage and effects are applied).
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