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Author Topic: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?  (Read 17197 times)

exid

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2016, 11:41:07 PM »
The Gate to Hell was changed in the latest printing. The attack now effects every zone in the arena. Still a steep cost but it is the only arena wide attack that exists at the moment. It works best in a Demon focused spellbook.

??? is there an errata somewhere?

wtcannonjr

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2016, 05:57:08 AM »
The Gate to Hell was changed in the latest printing. The attack now effects every zone in the arena. Still a steep cost but it is the only arena wide attack that exists at the moment. It works best in a Demon focused spellbook.

??? is there an errata somewhere?

Not that I have seen. This may be on Aaron's list of updates for the Resources section but I don't recall it being discussed recently.
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Laddinfance

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2016, 08:16:57 AM »
Gate to Hell was a card that was updated in the 4th Printing, and yea it's on my list. :)

iNano78

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2016, 09:22:52 AM »
Gate to Hell was a card that was updated in the 4th Printing, and yea it's on my list. :)

After failing to find a picture of it online, I've put a note on my to-do list to post a side-by-side image of the old and new Gate to Hell tonight.

Sadly, I don't own a copy of the new Goblin Builder to show that it can now repair Walls... and  if memory serves, there's an unfortunate typo "...Corporeal conjuration in or boardering his zone" or something like that.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:25:46 AM by iNano78 »
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exid

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2016, 09:31:52 AM »
the new Goblin Builder to show that it can now repair Walls.

???
we realy need a new official rules supplement!
(am i the only player who didn't buy a new box?)

iNano78

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2016, 09:39:43 AM »
the new Goblin Builder to show that it can now repair Walls.

???
we realy need a new official rules supplement!
(am i the only player who didn't buy a new box?)

I bought a new box partly for the new board, so we can have 3 matches going simultaneously in 3 different looking Arenas - Westlock (first printing board), Straywood (4th printing board) and Salenia (play mat).  And more cards (some with new text and art) never hurts.

But Goblin Builder is in Forcemaster vs Warlord, and I don't have a pressing need for a new copy of that expansion.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:00:54 AM by iNano78 »
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Laddinfance

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2016, 10:06:29 AM »
The supplement is one of the items that's going to be updated as soon as I'm past the current project.

Ravepig

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2016, 12:25:06 PM »
the new Goblin Builder to show that it can now repair Walls.

???
we realy need a new official rules supplement!
(am i the only player who didn't buy a new box?)

sounds like I got into this game at the right time.  ;) Will there be a reprinting of Druid vs. Necro? My buddy can't seem to find one for sale. Fortunately, I grabbed the last one our local game shop had in stock.
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iNano78

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2016, 12:42:35 PM »
the new Goblin Builder to show that it can now repair Walls.

???
we realy need a new official rules supplement!
(am i the only player who didn't buy a new box?)

sounds like I got into this game at the right time.  ;) Will there be a reprinting of Druid vs. Necro? My buddy can't seem to find one for sale. Fortunately, I grabbed the last one our local game shop had in stock.

If you mean "will it be reprinted with changes" the consensus is "no" other than to put the word "Arena" on the box.

If you mean "is it going to be reprinted (rather than discontinued / out of print)" the answer is "yes;" it's probably between print runs, but the intent is to have it available again in the near future.
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RomeoXero

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2016, 12:45:44 PM »
I'm not gonna lie to you guys, but some of the ideas i see coming out here are gobsmacking! Im not judging, everyone likes something different, but a vast majority of these changes would likely ruin the game that i love. I see that many folks dislike the dice, but i see random probability as a good thing not a chore. It makes the game more cerebral. If there were no blanks on the dice (or even fewer blanks to a  certain extent) the game becomes a slug fest out of the gate. Why bother trying to out think your opponent, or weave  an ellaborate plot to completely disable them then crush them? Every book would have 2 Hawkeye 2 akitos favor and 4 hurl boulders 4 fireballs 4 lighting bolts 6 acid balls, hurl Rick's, and flame blasts. I like that there are very few "100 percent effective with a certain number" ( a la MtG where lightning bolt always does 3 damage) spells. This way one cannot count on his meteorite dealing 10 damage every time. Why not just play 1 of those and 3 boulders? Game over in 3 rounds then shuffle up and deal again? 

I throughly enjoy the act of playing this game, win or lose i learn another tactic or another mistake to not make again. I just don't want to build hyper focused "60 card decks" that only do one thing over and over. The beauty of a mage wars spell book is that it needs to be flexible enough to handle anything but focused enough to kill the enemy. Theres never enough points for everything (unless your a wizard maybe) so the challenge is in minimizing weaknesses instead of being able to eradicate them.
Theres no hard answer to anything in mage wars,but there are many many soft ones. Its a cerebral game and i like it that way.  Again not judging, just thought id say something about how cool i think this game is. Lol!
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iNano78

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2016, 01:26:02 PM »
I'm not gonna lie to you guys, but some of the ideas i see coming out here are gobsmacking! Im not judging, everyone likes something different, but a vast majority of these changes would likely ruin the game that i love. I see that many folks dislike the dice, but i see random probability as a good thing not a chore. It makes the game more cerebral. If there were no blanks on the dice (or even fewer blanks to a  certain extent) the game becomes a slug fest out of the gate. Why bother trying to out think your opponent, or weave  an ellaborate plot to completely disable them then crush them? Every book would have 2 Hawkeye 2 akitos favor and 4 hurl boulders 4 fireballs 4 lighting bolts 6 acid balls, hurl Rick's, and flame blasts. I like that there are very few "100 percent effective with a certain number" ( a la MtG where lightning bolt always does 3 damage) spells. This way one cannot count on his meteorite dealing 10 damage every time. Why not just play 1 of those and 3 boulders? Game over in 3 rounds then shuffle up and deal again? 

I throughly enjoy the act of playing this game, win or lose i learn another tactic or another mistake to not make again. I just don't want to build hyper focused "60 card decks" that only do one thing over and over. The beauty of a mage wars spell book is that it needs to be flexible enough to handle anything but focused enough to kill the enemy. Theres never enough points for everything (unless your a wizard maybe) so the challenge is in minimizing weaknesses instead of being able to eradicate them.
Theres no hard answer to anything in mage wars,but there are many many soft ones. Its a cerebral game and i like it that way.  Again not judging, just thought id say something about how cool i think this game is. Lol!

^^ AGREED!!

I've posted a bunch of times in this thread, but only to answer questions and such.  I haven't answered the question because frankly a lot of peoples' suggestions would ruin the game.

The dice are fine.  In fact, I think they're great because the expectation value IS the number of dice (e.g. average roll on X dice is X, where X/2 is critical and X/2 is normal damage) which is very convenient.  The distribution narrows with the more dice you roll (which is why Academy is a little more swingy than Arena regarding dice).

I could get behind a rule change where conjurations with attacks get an action marker, as per the OP.  You could still quickcast a Conjuration (like Wizard's Tower or Corrosive Orchid or Nightshade Lotus) and use it immediately, but you couldn't quickcast an attack spell AND flip your mage's action to cast an attack spell AND have your Wizard's Tower cast an attack spell ... all without allowing your opponent to react (besides reveal enchantments)... which we all know is a *very powerful* play.  That wouldn't even require "Mage Wars 2.0" - it could be done as errata to the rule book and a handful of cards.

All equipment being Epic would be terrible for a lot of mages.  Want to beat a Priest? Dissolve his ONLY Staff of Asyra.  How about a Johktari Beastmaster?  Crumble her ONLY Kajarah or Hunting Bow.  Sure, it can be annoying to be a Warlock and come up against somebody running 3x Dragonscale Hauberk out-of-school... but then you just Explode them and move on.  I could see a compromise, that maybe all chest armours should have been level 2... in which case a Beastmaster or Druid is paying 6 sbp for Dragonscale and most other mages are paying 4 (but Beastmasters/Druids will get cheap access to Chitin Armor if/when it ever comes out in a set, so it will balance out).  Unfortunately that means the Wizard gets a little better, but that's hard to avoid when manipulating spell point costs.

As I suggested, Gate to Hell is still terrible (albeit slightly less terrible) even after the errata; it could stand to cost 4 less up front and 2 or 3 less later, or be a quick spell, or let you open it before or after a creature action rather than as your Mage's full action (argh!!), or some combination of these.  But whatever.  One thematic card that doesn't see play isn't as big a deal as some of the other quibbles I have with the game.  It would be like #15 on my priority list. It just seems fairly easy to fix compared to other issues.

"Novice" fills the need for a "neutral" spell school, but somehow I don't love how it works.  A very large fraction of War School spells are Novice, which means the Warlords lose out on what might otherwise be an advantage for them.  If everybody else paid the standard double for cards like Leather equipment, Brace Yourself and Defend, and if Veteran's Belt were "War Mage only", then the Warlord would be improved by comparison.  I think this (e.g. other mages having relatively cheap access to War spells) is one of the reasons that the Warlord feels a little underwhelming, even though it has 2 full schools of training and some interesting mage abilities and powerful (albeit highly conditional) mage-type-only spells.  Well, that and paying triple for Arcane, which is like tying one hand behind his back.  I often wonder if the game would actually be better if no spells were "Novice."

I agree that the total number of conditions and key words could be brought down.  Bleed/Burn/Rot are very similar; Daze/Stun/Slam/Sleep and Incapacitated in general are all flavours of the same thing, and I have to look them up EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. because somehow I can't keep them straight (and I'm a frequent Forcemaster player, so you'd think I'd remember them all by now).  Teleport and Push could have been the same thing (e.g. get rid of Teleport the card, but add a more powerful Push ("Shove"?) that can double-push something 2 zones, and make it that Teleport Trap does a "shove") and it wouldn't change much - except make it that cards like Astral Anchor wouldn't have been necessary, and Tanglevine and Force Hold would be a lot more powerful because you couldn't just Teleport out of a vine or drag a Force Hold with you (e.g. you'd have to kill the vine or Dispel the Force Hold, as per what seems like the intent of the cards).  But what we have works, and it's a little late to change it now (and I don't see how you could at this point).

I must be missing something because I don't find Mage Bane or Ghoul Rot (or Plagued) to be too strong.  They're good, and they solve the problem of dealing with heavily armored opponents (which solves the armor-swap issue, by the way) but it only takes a Dispel or Disperse to get rid of them.  Oh, except against the Necromancer, since he's immune to them... so you have to deal with the armor on a Necromancer since you can't just Ghoul Rot him.

I agree - and am somewhat shocked by - the number of grammar errors on cards.  Why, are there, so many, unnecessary, and, incorrect, placements of, commas, ?,  Didn't a native English speaker* proofread the (English) cards?
*William Shatner doesn't count.

If you're still worried about game length, try Domination.  It will speed up your games.
(Unless the problem is "analysis paralysis" in which case try a different opponent - or play faster)
(I'm guilty of this myself on "crucial turns" but our 1-on-1 matches are still ~ 75 minutes with rare exceptions so not ridiculously long)

Unless you want a 20 minute game.  Then play Academy or any of the many MANY many 20-30 minute LCG/CCG type games out there.  It's OK to admit that Mage Wars Arena/Domination just isn't your thing if you aren't into 1-2 hour matches with a really epic feel that involve some commitment to spell book building and the time it takes to play them out.  But I wouldn't be happy either if 1-on-1 matches were taking 3+ hours, so... try Domination. 
Note: 2-on-2 team Domination might take 3 hours; and 3-way matches might take 90-120 minutes.  But I'm OK with that.  It just might not be for everybody.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 01:35:37 PM by iNano78 »
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echephron

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2016, 05:52:18 PM »
I didn't mean this post to be "wizards are/aren't OP", "this spell costs too much", or randomization is bad and/or the greatest. Keep at it, if you like, but there are other more specialized thread already covering those. Respect how different people prefer different things and all that.

Following this discussion on destruction of equipment, what if all(or non-novice) equipment got the cantrip trait? Dissolves would still be an option, but you wouldn't need more than 1 copy of equipment.

A possible addition to this first idea would be adding an overpriced epic dissolve which obliterates(to cancel out cantrip).

As for conditions, downsizing would be crucial for me. Outright removing daze and replacing with slam for example would simplify without reducing depth. Stun ==incapacited as well, so just call incapacitated "stunned". The burn random damage versus the rot steady damage is something I'd like to preserve. Bleed, rot, and tainted could all be one condition though. Not to mention the time tax of combing through all those condition markers looking for another burn and all you can find are crippleds.

And subtly making 2.0 have a more narrow expected timespan would boost accessibility.
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DaveW

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2016, 07:28:06 PM »
The Gate to Hell was changed in the latest printing. The attack now effects every zone in the arena. Still a steep cost but it is the only arena wide attack that exists at the moment. It works best in a Demon focused spellbook.

But still, we determined (here in another thread) that you still need LOS to each zone that it attacks.

My own list would include making Gate to Hell more usable and/or not cost so much (even with the Arena-wide attack), Wizard's Tower should require mana to swap out the spell and be Legendary or somesuch, and spell point costs should be done a little differently... instead of a level 2 water spell costing a Druid 4, I feel it should cost her 3 (one level with training and one without).

The one more radical idea is to play on a hex map... maybe three hexes out from center. (That actually reminds me of an ancient PBM game that I played... Wizards got mana for "converting" hexes to their own power base, and there was a cost to move through each hex, etc.) Anyway, a hex map would allow for 2 or 3 players very readily.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 07:41:23 PM by DaveW »
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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2016, 07:29:00 PM »
Quote
Bleed, rot, and tainted could all be one condition though.
They are three completely different things though, so it is not clear to me what you would do here. Rot and Tainted are Poison, one of these deal damage and the other reduces Life. Bleed is bleeding, however they are all conditions that cause damage (or Life reduction) in different ways during upkeep.

I understand the desire to make things a bit more simple. All that will end up happening is the same thing that happened in Academy, the condition goes away, and instead it effect is written again and again and again on the card. So instead of having a simple concise location to read generic rules and their effects (i.e. the condition) they will be written on to cards and then your will have to review the FAQ to understand the ins and outs of it.

It really is a conundrum in game design for this particular game. If there were no new conditions implemented since the release of the core game, the design restrictions for new mages would be quite limiting and we would never get Frost (even though it Frost doesn't appear to need that design restriction in the first place.). New conditions are good for the game, they provide a single point of reference for players to understand game rules. I personally have no problem with them, other than the ones duplicated on spells in Academy to make things "simple".
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echephron

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Re: If you remade Mage Wars, what might you change?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2016, 08:22:29 PM »
RE: Sike
I meant Bleed, rot, and tainted get reduced to a typeless "DOT" condition. If the attack deals any damage, and the effect roll passes, they get the DOT marker. every upkeep they take 1 damage. removal cost of 2.

Hunters bow (bleed) would have an effect: 7+ dot. Darkfenne bat (rot) would have an untyped melee attack of 2 dice with a effect: 8+ poison DOT. If the target is immune to the type, they are immune to the DOT. Untyped DOTs have the same type as the attack roll they come from.

Something simple like that.

You lose the ability to have an uptyped attack deal an untyped condition which could only effect certain typed targets(bleed and non-plant living), but not much else. Its well worth the removal of clutter to me.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 08:28:47 PM by echephron »
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