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Author Topic: War school, the neighborhood bicycle  (Read 3975 times)

Iudicium86

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War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« on: April 26, 2016, 06:44:36 PM »
Was there a reason a good chunk of War was made novice?

Novice cards, currently;

Arcane: 2
Dark: 1
Holy: 2
Mind: 2
Nature: 0
War: 12 ( 2 are are known upcoming academy cards. Glancing Blow and Miss)

And even if you take out the basic leather equipment, that still leaves 8 novice cards in War.

Just curious what the line of reasoning may be. It just feels a little less special when a good chunk of the cards are available just as easily to everyone else.
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 08:18:46 PM »
I like to believe that novice cards are simply do because they represent generic magical effects, achievable no matter what"school" you belong to. Brace yourself is just a hardened blob of mana that protects against some damage. War school existed so they made it fit there but it could just as easily been anything else. Decoy is essentially just an enchantment with no trigger or final matrix behind it, its just mana that looks like an enchantment, every school has ar least one enchantment so we know they can all do it, but it's a tricky thing to do so its a mind spell. Mend, Any mage can figure out how to use some mana to stich together a small wound. It's not super effective but if they can summon the entire form of a magical beast  (cuz they aren't "real" creatures in the arena) he or she can probably patch a hole in the spell bound critter to keep it from fizzling so fast. It is technically healing though so it fits best in holy. Power strike or the one that grants elusive for a turn, these are all things that any school CAN do with basic magical acumen, a nature mage could swell the muscles of its beast for a short while, a fire mage could distract the guards with soot in the eyes, but thematically these spells need to fit into the schools we already have so they get sorted into what makes the most sense.  That way there's no need for 8 different versions of power strike, because the basic result is achievable in many different ways.
War is an awesome school, and it's also one of the largest. But in its mechanics is a very basic school. Make it bigger or better or faster or stronger, right now. Many of the novice cards your referencing are the leathers in the armor group, and the core set had a few novice war spells as well. I think on the whole they make sense and wars mage exclusive cards are amazing and offset that balance a little bit.
So when you think about it that way are there any of the novice cards you still don't think should be novice? I'm very interested
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Drefan

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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2016, 01:22:02 AM »
This is one of the reasons I feel the Warlord is at a disadvantage compared to the other Mages.

The War novice cards, especially the armor cards and brace yourself are among the most used cards in the arena, and in my eyes the strongest all around cards.
Since they fit into almost any type of deck you want to build, because armor is always something you need.

It's also a very cheap way to get your armor rating up before the opponent is able to reach you, while not fully committing to any sort of playstyle.
I feel this is especially true if you deploy the leather armor from your own battle forge.

Defend
is also a very strong card. It's a very cheap way to redirect your opponents dmg or strategy for that turn.

Dodge
A 50% chance to avoid an attack for two mana, it can make a huge difference but I'd rather spend two mana and use block.

Perfect Strike
Great card to throw someone off that might be counting on his/hers defense rolls.

Power Strike
An ok card for what it does, nothing more nothing less. Sometimes useful when two extra dice might do a difference, a lot better than bloodthirsty strike since it applies to anything.

Piercing Strike
Powerful card to catch someone off-guard with that's trusting their armor a bit too much.

So this is what I feel the Warlord gives the other Mages for a really good price!

And what does he get in return?
He gets what I'd call trick cards because their main purpose is mind games.

Decoy
a fun mind game spell which purpose is mainly to bait seeking dispels and check for nullifies.

Arcane Ward
basically a reversed jinx? You target the Non-Mage object, the object is protected by the arcane ward, the spell is countered. However, they still get their mana + card back while you just "lost" an action but got to keep whatever it was attached to for another round. It's a pretty decent card but in my eyes not close in value as the war novice cards I listed above.

Disarm
Pretty decent card at given times.

Holy Strike
A good card to surprise someone who thinks his conjuration/creature will survive just because it's incorporeal. I'd say it's probably one of the best if not the best novice card from none-war school.

Mend
A simple heal with three dice, not something you'd use in most games I'd reckon since you wouldn't worry about healing someone who has only taken 1-3 dmg unless it's a minor creature and then the gamble is a bit too much in my eyes.

Shift Enchantment
This is the only card I'd consider really good, it's a great way to save an important enchantment in case something is dying or you just need it move to someone else that would benefit more from it.

Bloodthirsty Strike
A "bad" version of Power Strike since you can only attack creatures.

My conclusion is that the Warlord is at a disadvantage because his novice spells are much better overall than any of the other novice spells. I think making leather armor none-novice could help the Warlord since he's opponents would spend a bit more spell book points using his armor!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 01:41:11 AM by Drefan »
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2016, 03:09:39 AM »
Decoy
a fun mind game spell which purpose is mainly to bait seeking dispels and check for nullifies.

Arcane Ward
basically a reversed jinx? You target the Non-Mage object, the object is protected by the arcane ward, the spell is countered. However, they still get their mana + card back while you just "lost" an action but got to keep whatever it was attached to for another round. It's a pretty decent card but in my eyes not close in value as the war novice cards I listed above.
they dont get their card back

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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2016, 03:20:06 PM »
Decoy
a fun mind game spell which purpose is mainly to bait seeking dispels and check for nullifies.

Arcane Ward
basically a reversed jinx? You target the Non-Mage object, the object is protected by the arcane ward, the spell is countered. However, they still get their mana + card back while you just "lost" an action but got to keep whatever it was attached to for another round. It's a pretty decent card but in my eyes not close in value as the war novice cards I listed above.
they dont get their card back
My bad! Makes the card better then :)
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War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 03:33:04 PM »
This is one of the reasons I feel the Warlord is at a disadvantage compared to the other Mages.

The War novice cards, especially the armor cards and brace yourself are among the most used cards in the arena, and in my eyes the strongest all around cards.
Since they fit into almost any type of deck you want to build, because armor is always something you need.

It's also a very cheap way to get your armor rating up before the opponent is able to reach you, while not fully committing to any sort of playstyle.
I feel this is especially true if you deploy the leather armor from your own battle forge.

Defend
is also a very strong card. It's a very cheap way to redirect your opponents dmg or strategy for that turn.

Dodge
A 50% chance to avoid an attack for two mana, it can make a huge difference but I'd rather spend two mana and use block.

Perfect Strike
Great card to throw someone off that might be counting on his/hers defense rolls.

Power Strike
An ok card for what it does, nothing more nothing less. Sometimes useful when two extra dice might do a difference, a lot better than bloodthirsty strike since it applies to anything.

Piercing Strike
Powerful card to catch someone off-guard with that's trusting their armor a bit too much.

So this is what I feel the Warlord gives the other Mages for a really good price!

And what does he get in return?
He gets what I'd call trick cards because their main purpose is mind games.

Decoy
a fun mind game spell which purpose is mainly to bait seeking dispels and check for nullifies.

Arcane Ward
basically a reversed jinx? You target the Non-Mage object, the object is protected by the arcane ward, the spell is countered. However, they still get their mana + card back while you just "lost" an action but got to keep whatever it was attached to for another round. It's a pretty decent card but in my eyes not close in value as the war novice cards I listed above.

Disarm
Pretty decent card at given times.

Holy Strike
A good card to surprise someone who thinks his conjuration/creature will survive just because it's incorporeal. I'd say it's probably one of the best if not the best novice card from none-war school.

Mend
A simple heal with three dice, not something you'd use in most games I'd reckon since you wouldn't worry about healing someone who has only taken 1-3 dmg unless it's a minor creature and then the gamble is a bit too much in my eyes.

Shift Enchantment
This is the only card I'd consider really good, it's a great way to save an important enchantment in case something is dying or you just need it move to someone else that would benefit more from it.

Bloodthirsty Strike
A "bad" version of Power Strike since you can only attack creatures.

My conclusion is that the Warlord is at a disadvantage because his novice spells are much better overall than any of the other novice spells. I think making leather armor none-novice could help the Warlord since he's opponents would spend a bit more spell book points using his armor!

Arcane ward gives you the mana back not the card.

What about using bloodthirsty strike on an enemy creature?
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 04:20:24 PM »
Not for nothing, but the war school existed in core set. Leather boots and leather gloves were both novice spells before there was even a mage that was trained in them. Its armor, you really think a druid should have to pay 3sp for a pair of gloves or boots? Why? Its clothing, there aren't even any bonuses besides one armor. It's novice cuz it makes sense that anyone could have a pair of boots they wish to wear into battle. The druid already pays triple for the best chest piece in the game, dragonscale hauberk. She should hsve to pay 12 sp for a decent set of equipment armor?

Let's not forget the stuff the warlord himself gets that no other school has anything even close to as good.
Conquer: the only instant destruction card in the game for conjurations. Sure you need a soldier in the zone but early on its pretty easy to run your goblin Grunt into that battleforge zone and spend 8 to 11 (for force push or teleport if the zone is occupied) mana to completely destroy it, THEN if you have the mana for it you can cast your own! Trees be gone, spawnpoints? Pheh warlords don't care. And it's not even epic! Take 2 and now the enemy has no spawnpoints, or use it on those crappy wizard towers everyone hates.
Ballista: yes it's not warlord only yet but it seems it  will be when it releases and it's freaking amazing. 5 dice and piercing every other round? Yes please. For no extra mana investment its like a beefy royal archer with Hawkeye and an additional piercing. That's 15 mana worth of investment for 8 mmana. Amazing.
Akiros hammer: destroys conjurations at range 3, almost always draws hate and changes the opponents strategy right away, and time correctly theres almost nothing to stop is first attack. Repeatable force hammer at range 3? Yes please! Not to mention his beefy ass familiar, or his at cost access to the best damage dealing creatures in the game.
Akiros battle cry: ... alright this one sucks and im sorry. Cant all be winners i guess.
All in all the warlord is weakened by his arcane restriction way more than by his novice cards selection. If anything be mad that the wiz pays 1X for novice stuff then only 2X for EVERYTHING else. Just remember, warlord wasn't even a thing when the novice armor cards were printed. But maybe I'm wrong, happens all the time lol!
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 04:47:01 PM »
Not for nothing, but the war school existed in core set. Leather boots and leather gloves were both novice spells before there was even a mage that was trained in them. Its armor, you really think a druid should have to pay 3sp for a pair of gloves or boots? Why? Its clothing, there aren't even any bonuses besides one armor. It's novice cuz it makes sense that anyone could have a pair of boots they wish to wear into battle. The druid already pays triple for the best chest piece in the game, dragonscale hauberk. She should hsve to pay 12 sp for a decent set of equipment armor?

Let's not forget the stuff the warlord himself gets that no other school has anything even close to as good.
Conquer: the only instant destruction card in the game for conjurations. Sure you need a soldier in the zone but early on its pretty easy to run your goblin Grunt into that battleforge zone and spend 8 to 11 (for force push or teleport if the zone is occupied) mana to completely destroy it, THEN if you have the mana for it you can cast your own! Trees be gone, spawnpoints? Pheh warlords don't care. And it's not even epic! Take 2 and now the enemy has no spawnpoints, or use it on those crappy wizard towers everyone hates.
Ballista: yes it's not warlord only yet but it seems it  will be when it releases and it's freaking amazing. 5 dice and piercing every other round? Yes please. For no extra mana investment its like a beefy royal archer with Hawkeye and an additional piercing. That's 15 mana worth of investment for 8 mmana. Amazing.
Akiros hammer: destroys conjurations at range 3, almost always draws hate and changes the opponents strategy right away, and time correctly theres almost nothing to stop is first attack. Repeatable force hammer at range 3? Yes please! Not to mention his beefy ass familiar, or his at cost access to the best damage dealing creatures in the game.
Akiros battle cry: ... alright this one sucks and im sorry. Cant all be winners i guess.
All in all the warlord is weakened by his arcane restriction way more than by his novice cards selection. If anything be mad that the wiz pays 1X for novice stuff then only 2X for EVERYTHING else. Just remember, warlord wasn't even a thing when the novice armor cards were printed. But maybe I'm wrong, happens all the time lol!

I'm not sure why you think a Druid would pay triple for Leather Boots/Gloves/Chausses if it weren't Novice.  She only pays double (like everybody else) for War school spells.  :-[

I've often wondered if Mage Wars might be better if "Novice" were removed from every card that has it.  The Warlord would suddenly be a lot better relative to other mages (compared to where he is now), and would become the master of armouring up.  Ditto for Defend (especially in Domination) and Brace Yourself (in Arena), although I'm sure most mages would gladly pay the premium 2 sbp's for BY and the Leather items.  Similarly, I think all chest pieces and (non-Leather) belts should be 2 sbp's to make the best out-of-school ones less of "auto-includes" for most mages.  A Beastmaster or Druid might think twice if Dragonscale Hauberk cost 6 sbp's, and even a Wizard might have to think about which element to choose if the Hauberk got significantly more expensive for Water/Earth and might consider trying an in-school chest piece.  Similarly, a Wizard might even have to cut a Teleport or a couple Dissolves/Dispels/Disperses/Crumbles/Jinxes/Nullifies in order to include his usual 2x Veteran's Belts and/or Regrowth Belts and/or Wychwood Ironvines.  The only spell that I imagine would suffer in playability might be Decoy, since it's currently a fun, cheap trick that doesn't seem to benefit any particular mage over the others, but I can't see a non-Mind mage justifying 2 sbp per Decoy.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:02:00 AM by iNano78 »
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 05:18:30 PM »
Not to be that guy, but druid does pay triple for war school spells
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 06:19:48 PM »
Not to be that guy, but druid does pay triple for war school spells

This is true, but then again she has barkskin + tree bond so she is naturally very tanky.

It's just the lack of other novice cards that put the warlord at a disadvantage. Would be great to see some kind of mobility novice spell that could be introduced. Force push for only non-mage creatures etc etc.
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 06:06:30 AM »
Not to be that guy, but druid does pay triple for war school spells
Wha...??

 :-[

Just checked my Domination Druid book, and I was only 3 points over for cheating with Galaxxus and Altar of the Iron Guard, but we've banned Galaxxus anyway (so my book is effectively 117 points after corrections and removal of banned card) - though she would be affected by the removal of Novice since she's packing a Brace Yourself and a Defend.

Anyway, my bad. I didn't realize she paid triple for 2 schools! I should pay more attention to the Mage ability cards.

*edit* I lied. Just counted the points in my book and apparently I had accounted for triple-cost War as it was right at 120 with 6-point Galaxxus and 3-point Altar. As you were.  :-[
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 06:23:58 AM by iNano78 »
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 10:01:16 AM »
Not to be that guy, but druid does pay triple for war school spells
Wha...??

 :-[

Just checked my Domination Druid book, and I was only 3 points over for cheating with Galaxxus and Altar of the Iron Guard, but we've banned Galaxxus anyway (so my book is effectively 117 points after corrections and removal of banned card) - though she would be affected by the removal of Novice since she's packing a Brace Yourself and a Defend.

Anyway, my bad. I didn't realize she paid triple for 2 schools! I should pay more attention to the Mage ability cards.

*edit* I lied. Just counted the points in my book and apparently I had accounted for triple-cost War as it was right at 120 with 6-point Galaxxus and 3-point Altar. As you were.  :-[

:D. I actually had to double check myself. I seem to always forget for sure if she does or not
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2016, 06:49:13 AM »
I don't see why people complain about Novice card being War.. it doesn't matter the school they are, they cost the same. They could have created another magic School named "Neutral" that it would have been the same result. But instead they went with the theme and put the cards they wanted to be Novice into the School that fit it the most thematically.

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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2016, 07:47:33 AM »
I don't see why people complain about Novice card being War.. it doesn't matter the school they are, they cost the same. They could have created another magic School named "Neutral" that it would have been the same result. But instead they went with the theme and put the cards they wanted to be Novice into the School that fit it the most thematically.

The point is that most mages benefit from playing in-school spells vs out-of-school spells, since in-school costs single and out-of-school costs double (or triple).  For instance, Beastmasters and Druid only pay single for all the (very versatile) Nature school enchantments, leaving more room in their books for other stuff, whereas all other mages have to pay double for those enchantments without exception (e.g. there are no Novice Nature-school spells).  Many of those cards show up in non-Nature mage spell books (e.g. Hawkeye, Bear Strength, Cheetah Speed, Mongoose Agility, Lion Savagery, etc), but an advantage of being a Nature mage is those spells are cheaper for you than for everybody else, so you're "better" at using them.  There is an advantage to being a Nature mage if you plan to load up on Nature enchantments.

Meanwhile, Warlords pay single for War school cards, which tend to be biased towards equipment and "command" incantations and enchantments.  If none were Novice, then the Warlords would get to pay less for these than all the other mages just as Nature mages get to pay less for the "staple" nature enchantments.  In other words, nothing would change for the Warlords, but all the other mages would have to think twice about including each War spell that is currently Novice, and specifically make room for those spells by cutting other spells.

But that's not the case.  Instead, every mage gets cheap access to many of the most useful War school cards, like Leather Boots/Chausses/Gloves/Belt, Brace Yourself, Defend, etc.  Thus, Warlords feel less "unique" and aren't particularly better than other mages at anything.  In order to give the Warlords some flavour and character (e.g. a specialty), they have lots of "War Mage Only" or "Warlord Only" conjurations (especially in FvW) and equipment (especially in FiF) because otherwise a Wizard or Forcemaster would do everything better than a Warlord does.  Or alternatively, if Novice didn't exist as a keyword - or if it meant something else, like "only costs double if you'd otherwise pay triple for that school" or something - then a Warlord would feel more specialized and would be "better" relative to other mages at, for instance, guarding (via Defend and Altar of the Iron Guard, the latter of which is NOT Novice) and at armouring themselves (via Leather equipment) and their creatures (e.g. Brace Yourself).  Everybody else would still have access to these spells (just like everybody can use Nature enchantments), but it would make the Warlords a better choice if that's what you want to focus your strategy on.  They'd be specialists at something without having to resort to "mage type only" cards.

Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 09:01:13 AM by iNano78 »
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Re: War school, the neighborhood bicycle
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 12:51:31 PM »
It makes sense in what you're saying i suppose, but the Warlord already does so many things better than everyone else. Removing novice from the 5 cards you seem to be upset about (the leathers, Brace yourself, and defend it seems) would now mean the warlord (the only war trained mages so far) has almost exclusive access to armor in general. But the warlord already had phenomenal options for armor already! Hes got most useful chest piece in the whole game and the most popular warlord (anvil throne) has incredible things he can do worth said equipment. The warlord is ALREADY equipment focused, what with the command helmet, harsh forge anything, eisenarchs forge hammer, along with a host of at cost war equipment (that NO other mage gets at cost) that freaking rocks. He pays 2 for reflex boots everyone else pays 4, druid pays 6. Equipment provides literally everything the warlord wants besides other actions, for which he has some of the best creature options in the game. The anvil throne gets runes that provide a disproportionate benefit to cost, costing one to play and an additional 2 to remove (4 with harshforge plate, which will likely be a cantrip now, ergo costing 12 mana to dissolve or crumble). All in all the war school is huge and badass and even with the novice spells excluded its STILL bigger than most of the other schools,with many viable threats ready and raring.

I get where your coming from, i just don't see it being necessary. Novice spells are novice because a specialization in who can use them would imballance them. The warlord would indeed be very powerful if novice went away...about as powerful as he is now. And removing the novice trait won't stop anyone else from playing these cards, it will likely shift the meta back towards everyone playing wizards again because why not? They literally get the most SP. The novice cards in general open up play options for every mage that otherwise might only be open to one or two, and mage wars is a fully customizable deck builder. I have a ton of fun figuring out new and odd waits of playing  (just look at my ill fated malacoda priestess)and i fear making everyone pay double for novice cards will only injure the meta going forward.
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