October 16, 2019, 07:41:16 PM

Author Topic: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things  (Read 6014 times)

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1787
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2016, 10:58:47 AM »
What i see right now is Mystery as Falcon giving reasons to Kiwi birds not to be afraid of hights (Wizards). Wizard is not unbeatable. But you have to be a more experienced player then usual. Does Wizard have very great set of tools to destroy you? Yes. Does he needs to be fixed? For Falcons? Why bother. For Kiwis, yes it should. At the end, there are more average players then Falcons so their voice will be heard much more often :)

I don't consider myself or iNano as "kiwi birds". We both have a lot of experience with mage wars and have been playing for years. Maybe Mystery has a lot of wizard counters in his competitive books but there is def. a problem with wizards. EVEN for experienced players. Of course an experienced player with a weak spellbook will destroy a new player with an awesome wizard book but that's not even the point.

DOT is indeed a very good counter against wizards, but even so, they have purge magic/destroy magic. And not every deck has DOT..
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 11:01:20 AM by Halewijn »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Mystery

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2016, 11:09:07 AM »
A good counter to a tanky Veteran Belt/High Armour Wizard is DoT, especially using Enchantment Transfusion (since the Wizard probably can't Dispel/Disperse them fast enough... unless he uses Purge Magic).  But that anti-tank strategy is going to get a lot worse when Academy Priestess brings Remove Curse and Cure.  A tanky Wizard can add these to his book and become nearly immune to curse/rot/bleed-based DoT strategies too, with little compromise to his other strategies.  Then he'll be really strong against (1) level 1 creature swarms, (2) solo, (3) buddy, and (4) DoT.  So... what is his weakness again?  You suggest Rust is an answer, but Rust is also a curse, so not only can it be Dispel'ed (even with a Dispel Wand) easily but it can be Remove Curse'd too.

What will you remove from your book for the remove curse? I will have to cut something and already now I can't include all. As said spellbooks are extremly tight and you have to cut on something even in those wizards. Yes DOT will get weaker with remove curse, but keep in mind as you said Enchantment transfusion, that works also on Purge magic and remove curse. If i free that point for remove curse by removing a chest piece i will only have 2 so once one is gone i cant remove efficiently the corrodes and are prone to be roasted by adramalech fire, if i take an attack spell out I have non i can cast out of my hand as I then can't fuel my wands and towers. If I take a dissolve or something I can only fuel the 3 mage wands and loose any mirror and heavy equipment dwarf probably also. The question will always be will that oponent that I am not so well prepared know that I am not. Like 8 month ago I also had been: "Oh, Wizard OP and I was kind of slightly resigning in my head" Thats the thought we all have to lose try and stay focused.

Remove curse will weaken DOT curse but Warlock will get buffed. With critical strike, bear strength and wolf fury you roll a 7dice piercing 4 attack even without a weapon, so that rust helps but its not all. He cant dispel all. Your goal is of course to survive then, but for example charmynas deff wizard slightly lacked that killing power. He was even better prepared defense wise though (with more dispel/dissolve and deflection bracers), but he won all games cause the otherone gave up due to exhaustion. ....

Quote
Really? Because most of the wizard spellbooks I've ever seen were variations of either blasting banker, watergate, wiz tower attack spell rush or telepit.
most necros I see are variations of Zombie Brute Libro, Skeleton Knights or both swarms and poison

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2016, 11:28:29 AM »
A good counter to a tanky Veteran Belt/High Armour Wizard is DoT, especially using Enchantment Transfusion (since the Wizard probably can't Dispel/Disperse them fast enough... unless he uses Purge Magic).  But that anti-tank strategy is going to get a lot worse when Academy Priestess brings Remove Curse and Cure.  A tanky Wizard can add these to his book and become nearly immune to curse/rot/bleed-based DoT strategies too, with little compromise to his other strategies.  Then he'll be really strong against (1) level 1 creature swarms, (2) solo, (3) buddy, and (4) DoT.  So... what is his weakness again?  You suggest Rust is an answer, but Rust is also a curse, so not only can it be Dispel'ed (even with a Dispel Wand) easily but it can be Remove Curse'd too.

What will you remove from your book for the remove curse? I will have to cut something and already now I can't include all. As said spellbooks are extremly tight and you have to cut on something even in those wizards. Yes DOT will get weaker with remove curse, but keep in mind as you said Enchantment transfusion, that works also on Purge magic and remove curse. If i free that point for remove curse by removing a chest piece i will only have 2 so once one is gone i cant remove efficiently the corrodes and are prone to be roasted by adramalech fire, if i take an attack spell out I have non i can cast out of my hand as I then can't fuel my wands and towers. If I take a dissolve or something I can only fuel the 3 mage wands and loose any mirror and heavy equipment dwarf probably also. The question will always be will that oponent that I am not so well prepared know that I am not. Like 8 month ago I also had been: "Oh, Wizard OP and I was kind of slightly resigning in my head" Thats the thought we all have to lose try and stay focused.

Remove curse will weaken DOT curse but Warlock will get buffed. With critical strike, bear strength and wolf fury you roll a 7dice piercing 4 attack even without a weapon, so that rust helps but its not all. He cant dispel all. Your goal is of course to survive then, but for example charmynas deff wizard slightly lacked that killing power. He was even better prepared defense wise though (with more dispel/dissolve and deflection bracers), but he won all games cause the otherone gave up due to exhaustion. ....

Quote
Really? Because most of the wizard spellbooks I've ever seen were variations of either blasting banker, watergate, wiz tower attack spell rush or telepit.
most necros I see are variations of Zombie Brute Libro, Skeleton Knights or both swarms and poison

Except there are four different wizards and only one necromancer. There should be more than just four ways to play wizard. Also, I think you're forgetting that wizard is supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, and none of those four strategies play like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Boocheck

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2107
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 11:31:46 AM »
What i see right now is Mystery as Falcon giving reasons to Kiwi birds not to be afraid of hights (Wizards). Wizard is not unbeatable. But you have to be a more experienced player then usual. Does Wizard have very great set of tools to destroy you? Yes. Does he needs to be fixed? For Falcons? Why bother. For Kiwis, yes it should. At the end, there are more average players then Falcons so their voice will be heard much more often :)

I don't consider myself or iNano as "kiwi birds". We both have a lot of experience with mage wars and have been playing for years. Maybe Mystery has a lot of wizard counters in his competitive books but there is def. a problem with wizards. EVEN for experienced players. Of course an experienced player with a weak spellbook will destroy a new player with an awesome wizard book but that's not even the point.

DOT is indeed a very good counter against wizards, but even so, they have purge magic/destroy magic. And not every deck has DOT..

You define yourself as Falcon ;)

One thing is to have Counters for Wizard but also Wizard need counters for others. What makes you to start countering Wizard instead force Wizard to start countering you? What makes you start reacting instead of further acting? Is it his abilites, his school or his spellbook or the player behind it?

I build books for fun. Having something like Windwarf when my dwarf is using wind attacks to push enemies trough Wall of Pikes to a zones with Mangler Caltrops while using Construction Yard or Locking Warlock when i am locking enemies with Enfeeble and Devils Trident to allow Skeleton Archers to do their job. If i met competetive wizard, i would fail even against average player, yet what kind of headache cause this to very experienced player? Will my Wacky books fool them? Give them "false" information so they will made "wrong" choices? I like a story where best swordsmen in the world should not fear the second best swordsmen, because he will know what he will do and bring into the fight, but to fear the last swordsmen in a bracket, because you will never know, what kind of "unexpected" he can bring into the fight.

My whole point is, that Mystery reached a level, where he not see Wizard as an overpowered mage. For me? For you? is it overpowered? For me, i dont like them but i dont fear them. Current card pool is giving them lot of love, thats for sure. Mystery gave many interesting stuff to think about and even bring a solution. I agree, DOT cannot be in every book. DOT Priestess seems very odd. Yet he can be beaten. Overpowered for me is a situation when it doesnt matter what kind of player you are if your victory is assured by just a mage you are playing.

I just hoped that we will not start calling fresh players Kiwis :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 11:34:38 AM by Boocheck »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
I am one with the force, the force is with me! (Warlord is still my fav mage ;) )

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1787
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 12:34:00 PM »
You define yourself as Falcon ;)
True  :P But I deem Mystery and many others better than me.

My whole point is, that Mystery reached a level, where he not see Wizard as an overpowered mage. For me? For you? is it overpowered? For me, i dont like them but i dont fear them. Current card pool is giving them lot of love, thats for sure. Mystery gave many interesting stuff to think about and even bring a solution. I agree, DOT cannot be in every book. DOT Priestess seems very odd. Yet he can be beaten. Overpowered for me is a situation when it doesnt matter what kind of player you are if your victory is assured by just a mage you are playing.

For some setups, the chances are none to win. Nonetheless, I do not fear wizards, but losing a tense games is no problem while just getting slaughtered by a wizard combining all the cheesy tricks, like multiple towers, and bassically overwhelming you in every way, just feels infuriating.  :P
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

Mystery

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1856
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 01:51:18 PM »
Except there are four different wizards and only one necromancer. There should be more than just four ways to play wizard. Also, I think you're forgetting that wizard is supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, and none of those four strategies play like that.

not really the elements do matter from what i meet. Of course you will always have dissolves somewhere. And charmynas wizard did bring me to the point of the trixter part of protecting enchantments. The tank wizard has like 5 of ET and other things.

The point I wanted to make is really that i myself was often feeling like I have no chance because it is a wizard, but that was month ago and by just getting rid of that thought of Wizard being a Problem increases your chances to beat it. Mentally! that's also what I did discribe with psycho tricks and so on.

But I would also hope that this is not only getting another wizard bash threat. There is so much other information in it

Coshade

  • Arcane Duels Host
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1878
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
    • Arcane Duels!
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2016, 03:01:37 PM »
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Coshade

  • Arcane Duels Host
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1878
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
    • Arcane Duels!
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2016, 03:02:39 PM »
Seriously though, Mystery I love your write up. I'll discuss it with you on pm because there's a lot to unpack and its' tough to do it over this thread.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2016, 03:05:20 PM »
Except there are four different wizards and only one necromancer. There should be more than just four ways to play wizard. Also, I think you're forgetting that wizard is supposed to be a trickster and master manipulator, and none of those four strategies play like that.

not really the elements do matter from what i meet. Of course you will always have dissolves somewhere. And charmynas wizard did bring me to the point of the trixter part of protecting enchantments. The tank wizard has like 5 of ET and other things.

The point I wanted to make is really that i myself was often feeling like I have no chance because it is a wizard, but that was month ago and by just getting rid of that thought of Wizard being a Problem increases your chances to beat it. Mentally! that's also what I did discribe with psycho tricks and so on.

But I would also hope that this is not only getting another wizard bash threat. There is so much other information in it

I'm sorry I'm having trouble understanding you. You said "not really the elements do matter from what I meet". Not sure what that means.

Wizard shouldn't only play like a trickster and master manipulator when he's protecting enchantments.
It should be the general style of the wizard. The fact that the wizard is constantly being played as a brute-force mage rather than a trickster and master manipulator means that something is going wrong here. Whether or not he is "overpowered" in the sense of being unbeatable when used by a sufficiently skilled player is irrelevant to that.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Out of the ashes, a new power will rise.
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2016, 06:10:42 PM »
Mystery, btw, what roles did each of charmyna's creatures fufill? Havent goten around to watching much of his matches due to the fact the commentary isn't in English.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:35:14 AM by Reddicediaries »
The Phoenix shall rise.

DaveW

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Mystery's thoughts about a lot of things
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2016, 07:53:14 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts... I got some new insights that I will have to explore there.

On Enchanter's Wardstone, what you say is true on cost return (break even on second and come out ahead on third dispel)... But where I think it really shines is on Purges... After spending 12 or 16 mana to cast the base spell, they might be limited in how many spells get removed by mama costs from the Wardstone.
  • Favourite Mage: Asyra Priestess