November 25, 2017, 05:17:31 AM

Author Topic: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata  (Read 19629 times)

RomeoXero

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2016, 09:25:05 PM »
Thank you Arcane Wonders! Sincerely. I feel as though this last round of wizard hate got particularly heated and i got just as wrapped up in it as any of us did and not only did you say you were looking into it actively, but you dropped the fix almost right after. Before i even say anything about the changes in general id like to say thank you as a player, for hearing us. It couldn't have been an easy choice and we weren't being very nice anymore by the end of it all, and you guys took it all in stride and then fixed it on your terms and time line.
Now onto the changes!
Firstly the wizard training fox was a nice choice! It doesn't cripple the wizard too much as he still has 2 in schools, and he still only pays double for anything else. Looks much more like the other mages now and I'm very pleased!
Secondly the tower went even a little farther than i was expecting! In reality its probably the most functional way to fix that card as now the action economy is still there, but at a constant SP cost, thus making every attack spell count again. Very well done!
Thirdly you've also added another mage with no trip school, effectively ending the wizard's reign in all three categories! Bravo and thank you once again. I feel better!
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2016, 09:48:56 PM »
I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.

That was DEFINITELY NOT the point of the wizard!


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Keep it calm Sailor. No need to heighten the tension.

Sorry, I was feeling kind of lazy and used all caps for emphasis instead of italics. Didn't mean to sound like I was shouting.
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Laddinfance

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2016, 10:12:35 PM »
I figured you weren't trying to exacerbate things, but I just wanted to keep you honest.

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2016, 01:25:02 AM »
Ohhhhh boy. Ok I'm gonna speak now on this. First before I say anything else I want to congratulate Laddinface for having the courage to make this decision and post it 30 days before the biggest event in American gaming.

Now I'm going to explain my thoughts and my position on this. In short: I'm not a huge fan of the wizard change. The tower I could give two flips about, I eat those things for breakfast and I play against pretty skilled players. The training change however I felt was a little over much, but then I've never been anywhere near the "Wizards are OP" train of thought. But ok for the sake of argument a little modification needs to be made, I still think there were better options. I'm not the lead designer though so I didn't give a whole lot of thought to such changes. Laddinface is and Laddinface did give those thoughts.

That's where I shift gears actually. Laddinface. He's the one among us who makes tough calls like this. Oh yeah I know he's the big boss but he's close enough for government work from the creative side. I know what it's like to be "the guy" in charge of big stuff. I run fundraisers and charity events on a regular basis and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain about being the guy in charge it's this: You'll get second guessed no matter what. You'll second guess yourself more than anything most likely. But anyway I've met Laddinface in person, I was Gen Con Judge last year too and got to work with him. He's a good man with an insane intellect. He's already designed some of the best sets we have and he's never let us down as players. If you need any more proof on that then go buy Paladin vs Siren when it comes out, sets amazing. I'm a play tester sure but he's the lead designer and he's done a fantastic job so far. So I'm willing to accept that he knows what he's doing in the long run and I'm willing to take it on faith that he's not going to steer us wrong. Even if I don't personally like this decision I can accept that it was made by someone more qualified than myself and that it was done for a good reason.
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iNano78

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2016, 05:01:56 AM »
I'm not 100% sure the training does enough to tone down the Wizard, as he and the Siren are still the only mages without a triple cost school, and his abilities are still tops in terms of power level and usefulness.  Wizard's Tower nerf is big, though, as it means a Tower-based Wizard has to put some points into his toolbox of attack spells, not just include 1-2 of each of a wide variety of spells.  In fact, he might be more likely to run an Elemental Wand to save on sbp's on the attack spells he casts himself since his Tower is going to be burning through sbp's at a much higher rate.

There are a lot of interesting consequences to the training change, though.  Others have pointed out how it indirectly makes the Warlock and Warlord and Siren better, since they're the only mages specialized in Fire, Earth and Water, respectively.  This means Hurl Meteorite and Golem Pit are now much more likely to be in a Warlord's book than a Wizard's book - although a Wizard could still pull it off, just not cheaper than a Warlord anymore.  In other words, a Wizard is no longer a better Warlock than the Warlock, or a better Warlord than the Warlord, or a better Siren than the Siren.  But he can still dabble in those things, or specialize in Air (and currently be the only mage who does).

This also means that Dragonscale Hauberk just got a lot worse - or at least, less of a must-have in multiple copies in every book.  Before, there were more Fire mages than any other element (well, except Earth, but Warlord isn't as popular as Warlock in most Arena metas and Earth doesn't have a damage type so your choice of chestpiece isn't relevant vs Earth).  Given that you could face either Warlock or the possibility of a Fire Wizard meant you should preferentially choose Dragonscale.  Of course, even a Water or Earth Wizard generally sports a few Fireballs and/or Flameblasts, and an Air Wizard may very well continue to do so, but at least Fireballs are less likely to be spammed from the Wizard's Tower.  And since the Wizard has training in Air, suddenly Wind Wyvern Hide and Stormdrake Hide are much more viable.  For an armor-heavy mage, I could see having 2x Dragonscale, 1x Wind Wyvern and 1x Stormdrake... or just whatever's in school (except maybe Bearskin) and a couple Elemental Cloaks because they're versatile.

So... yeah... the other elemental schools just got "stronger" because all mages feel a little more specialized (and various strategies now have homes outside the Wizard), and thus all the non-Dragonscale chestpieces just became more relevant.  All from a pretty subtle change.

(I still think the Tower is the bigger change here.  A Wizard can still pack a pretty diverse toolbox; just swap Lightning Spells into an old Fire Wizard book and not much changes - except he gets better at countering swarms because Daze/Stun/Stagger, at the cost of a little bit of raw damage).
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Kaarin

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2016, 05:55:46 AM »
One thing that not everyone may have realized is that by losing spellbind Wizard Tower can't be used the same turn it was cast.
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Drefan

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2016, 05:59:42 AM »
I really like this Errata.

Fixing the Wizard's Tower and its ability to basically be a source of unlimited attack spells was a good target for nerfs. And I do believe this won't hit tower to hard in terms of what the card costs.

The Wizard being trained in Air and Arcane seems good to me, it might be too early to tell but it feels like it's the natural way to limit the big books that you were able to build when you could choose an element.

I think this is a really good change since this should knock the Wizard of his throne while still not making him a bad mage.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2016, 06:46:20 AM »
It seems to me like the octgn meta has been getting more chronically stale over the past couple years. Too many spellbooks that are too similar to each other and too generic. I hope these errata fix that! A lot of my favorite online Mage Wars players have left the game. A couple of past Mage Wars players seemed to be trickling back onto octgn one point within the past couple weeks, but I haven't seen them online since.

murphy, johansson, charmyna, jacksmack, that one dude who beat charmyna with a forcemaster a long time ago whose username I can't remember. I used to have a really long list of online mage wars buddies. Now almost none of them play on octgn anymore.

It seems to be getting better again though, but I guess it remains to be seen whether Octgn mage wars will ever be as popular as it once was.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 06:51:10 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2016, 07:07:22 AM »
Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book. And know, there will be more counters to knights of westlock and brogan (lightning +2) I wonder why no one used air, from what I can tell, its not not mana efficient.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 07:15:17 AM by Reddicediaries »
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jacksmack

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2016, 07:17:19 AM »
Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.

Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.

Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.

Reddicediaries

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2016, 07:22:15 AM »
Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.

Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.

Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.

I agree there spending a ton of mana. However before, the wizard's tower could just recast the same spells over again so they never run out. They could always strip the armor down or health down.
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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2016, 08:01:39 AM »
Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.

Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.

Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.

I agree there spending a ton of mana. However before, the wizard's tower could just recast the same spells over again so they never run out. They could always strip the armor down or health down.

Exactly.  Before, if you cast a Battle Forge in a match against an Earth or Fire (or Water) Wizard, the Wizard would typically cast a Wizard's Tower and immediately Surging Wave's your Forge and then hard-cast another (or use some other attack) to finish it off.  Are you really going to bring up another Forge on turn 3 when there's a Wizard's Tower with Surging Wave ready to strike again?  The Wizard spent 2 sbp on the Tower, and 2 (or 1) on a Surging Wave that he'll get several uses out of (or swap it for a more useful attack spell from his limitless toolbox).  Now at least each Surging Wave costs the (Air) Wizard 2 sbp and gets used up each time a Wizard's Tower casts it, so it's a much more limited resource, especially if it's just one attack spell in a toolbox of attack spells for various purposes.
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Ravepig

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2016, 08:23:29 AM »
I like this idea of different Wizards focused in a different element with maybe unique ability card.  This could help with balance of the Wizards abilities and offer some choice and balance. 

Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.

Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?

Quote
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.

While neat, it is the very problem that has been addressed.

Yesterday the wizard had an incredible advantage in the construction of his spell books. He could focus on one element at a premium and then pay normal rate for the others. It was not the intention for him to be 4 mages; just the wizard.

Today the above state is still true. He receives arcane & air at a premium and all other spells at the normal rate. He is still the mack daddy jack of all trades because he does not have a x3 cost.

What this does now is give the warlord a unique premium in the game now; This now gives Warlocks a unique premium in the game now; Siren will have a unique premium with Druid having a little one step in her pond. A hurl meteor sized burden has been lifted from the design lens. Earth Mage Only no longer means wizard. That's huge and in a very good way!

The old wizard mage ability card even has the air symbol next to his arcane symbol.


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Agree!

Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
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Laddinfance

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2016, 08:29:36 AM »
Agree!

Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?

The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.

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Re: Wizard and Wizard's Tower Errata
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2016, 08:55:21 AM »
Agree!

Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?

The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.

It's basically the same as for anybody with 1st printing copies of Temple of Light, Battle Fury, Hand of Bim-Shalla, Malacoda, or any of the other cards that have had major or minor errata.  You can still use your old cards, but refer to the most current text and Rules Supplement.

Speaking of which, hey Laddinfance, how soon should we expect an update to the Codex and Rules Supplement documents?  ;)
(No rest for the wicked, right?)
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