August 15, 2018, 07:04:05 PM

Author Topic: Second Chance vs Rise Again question  (Read 2009 times)

Borg

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 571
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« on: September 06, 2016, 01:15:40 PM »
Suppose your Timber Wolf goes down and you've put a Second Chance on him but your opponent has put a Rise Again on him.

Which one works ?

I'm guessing the player who has initiative gets to go first and the other enchantment fizzles ... or not ?
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1786
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2016, 01:41:30 PM »
1) the person owning the object to affected by the enchantment can act first.

2) If this affects both players, the player with initiative can go first.

Since you own the timber wolf, your second chance can go first. 
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

ClockWork

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 05:43:41 AM »
Cast Rise again on this thread here....

1) the person owning the object to affected by the enchantment can act first.

Sorry to doubt, but that doesn't seem right . I'm under the impression if both players want to reveal at the same time they do so in initiative order.

Where can i find the rule your referring too?
Siren is so cool

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1786
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 06:04:58 AM »
Core rules:

Quote
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order

"This phase" is the upkeep phase here. I thought this was a general rule and not only during upkeep, but now you make me doubt and I think you might be right.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 06:09:53 AM »
Core rules:

Quote
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order

"This phase" is the upkeep phase here. I thought this was a general rule and not only during upkeep, but now you make me doubt and I think you might be right.

Clockwork is correct. See the rule section on Enchantments. It describes the sequence of revealing as initiative player first, then opponent. This sequence can repeat until both players no longer decide to reveal.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2016, 06:56:58 AM »
First of all the text on these 2 cards are not the same.

Rise again must be revealed before the creature is destroyed - this usually means before the apply damage step.
It simply has no effect while its face down - and in case we get something like bim shalla that 'instantly' deals damage that cannot be responded to, then this card has no chance of being revealled.

Second chance on the other hand... the text specifically states that when this create is destroyed then you may reveal second chance.
If you reveal second chance while the creature is alive: "You may immediately summon the creature into the zone it was destroyed.
Because you cannot immediately do it (its not destroyed) the enchantment will have no effect.


So what we are up against is the following:
A creature receives a lethal hit.
Before the damage applied step the necromancer reveals Rise Again.
Next is damage applies step. Creature dies here. And now Paladin reveals Second chance which he can only do if he has initiative because of conflicting timing.
Second chance is resolved and the paladin is happy with his re-summoned creature.
Necromancer's turn to resolve Rise Again....he can still pay the mana cost but it will have no effect because there is no longer a creature to put into play and give a zombie condition.

If the necromancer had intiative there would be no time for the paladin to reveal as they both trigger on *when this creature is destroyed*

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2016, 06:58:38 AM »
Give me that banana sticker - its been a while!

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1786
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 07:20:56 AM »
Giving banana stickers is something that should always be consensual. If Laddinfance does not want to give a banana sticker, you should not force him to. Also, it is not because Laddinfance has given you banana stickers in the past that he wants to give banana stickers to you in the future, nor does it oblige him to ever do it again.

  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

ClockWork

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 89
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2016, 08:04:22 AM »
Won't Rise again always trump because it must be revealed before the creature dies and therefore is is always "time-stamped" before Second Chance is even allowed to be revealed.

Enchantments execute in the order revealed?
Siren is so cool

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 08:47:33 AM »
I doubt timestamps are relevant here.

Its used to determine stuff like bull endurance vs deathlock and flying vs maimwings etc.


Sometimes an enchantment can result in an attack, this allow other enchantments (rhino hide for instance) to be revealed and take effect before you are fully done resolving the first enchantment that provide the attack.
(ie. rhino hide do offer some protection against the trap.)


Rise again executes in a manner that its waiting for a trigger. This trigger could happen several rounds later and in the mean time we can reveal a bear strength and benefit from it. We do not have to wait for Rise Again to *finish resolving* by having its trigger condition met for Bear Strength to take effect.
The trigger from Rise Again trigger is excately the same for second chance so we need to determine what effect takes place first with initiative.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3125
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 08:53:32 AM »
Giving banana stickers is something that should always be consensual. If Laddinfance does not want to give a banana sticker, you should not force him to. Also, it is not because Laddinfance has given you banana stickers in the past that he wants to give banana stickers to you in the future, nor does it oblige him to ever do it again.

The claw is our master. It decides who shall get a banana sticker, and who shall not...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Laddinfance

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 02:02:12 PM »
You're welcome.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 06:53:42 PM »
whoop whoop.

werner

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 01:28:18 PM »
Was Second Chance already errata'd? Because my copy says nothing about "Reveal on Destroyed." The Reveal Cost-Circle isn't even RED (must reveal). As reading the card, it would appear you need to manually reveal Second Chance BEFORE uninterruptible dmg occurs.

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1256
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 05:54:09 PM »
Was Second Chance already errata'd? Because my copy says nothing about "Reveal on Destroyed." The Reveal Cost-Circle isn't even RED (must reveal). As reading the card, it would appear you need to manually reveal Second Chance BEFORE uninterruptible dmg occurs.

Should look like the image at http://www.spellbookbuilder.com/. Pretty sure there has only been one printing of Academy Priestess...
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster