October 14, 2019, 06:25:03 AM

Author Topic: Packleader's Cowl  (Read 3868 times)

Tyrnan

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Packleader's Cowl
« on: September 12, 2016, 04:20:24 PM »
"... during this mage's activation" means >>anytime while this mage is active<< and not >>directly after this mage's activation (indicated by flicking the action marker)<<, right?
This is not relevant for Academy because the mage cannot take a move action, so I'm asking this here in the arena forum, where it is relevant whether a mage uses the cowl's effect before or after moving.
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Puddnhead

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 06:16:42 PM »
Yes you would have to use the cowl after flipping you mage's action marker and before using a quick cast or ready marker, but I would say you could use your action to summon a creature and then use the cowl to give that creature a guard marker.
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Zuberi

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 06:33:52 PM »
I agree with Puddnhead. During the Mage's activation means anytime after you flip their action marker and before you end their action phase. That last part is a bit tricky because the end of an action phase doesn't really have anything marking it and in practice mostly just boils down to you saying that you're done. It definitely ends though before you have another opportunity to use your Quick Cast Marker or can use any other effects that occur "after" a creature's action phase. So as long as you use it between those two points, you're fine.

Tyrnan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 06:39:29 PM »
Thank you very much Puddnhead and Zuberi. That's exactly how I read it :).
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Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 07:21:55 PM »
If it is the case that activation basically consists of flipping the action marker, removing the guard token and performing an action - as I understand your reply above - shouldn't we clarify that in the Codex?

Quote
Activate
When you choose to take an Action Phase with a creature you activate it. Flip its action marker over, and remove any guard marker on it.

Doesn't this definition make it look like activation merely covers the act of choosing the next creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token? Excluding the action? The word "Activation" is not in the Codex?

Also: does this mean that "creature action phase" and "activation" are basically synonyms? So could the card have said: "During this mage's action phase" and would that be the same as "During this mage's activation"?.

Would that perhaps even be clearer?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 07:44:15 PM by Donovan »
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Kharhaz

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 07:42:18 PM »
If it is the case that activation basically consists of flipping the action marker, removing the guard token and performing an action - as I understand your reply above - shouldn't we clarify that in the Codex?

Quote
Activate
When you choose to take an Action Phase with a creature you activate it. Flip its action marker over, and remove any guard marker on it.

Doesn't this definition make it look like activation merely covers the act of choosing the next creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token? Excluding the action?


Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.

Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 07:51:32 PM »

Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.

I find that is a rather fuzzy definition it could still mean that an action is preceded by an activation instead of an activation containing the action.

Why not just say that a Creature Action Phase and Activation are the same thing?

Or even better: why not avoid using a fuzzy definition of Activation (how long does that last?) and just use Creature Action Phase instead?
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Kharhaz

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 08:07:00 PM »

Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.

I find that is a rather fuzzy definition it could still mean that an action is preceded by an activation instead of an activation containing the action.

Why not just say that a Creature Action Phase and Activation are the same thing?

Or even better: why not avoid using a fuzzy definition of Activation (how long does that last?) and just use Creature Action Phase instead?

I'm not sure how this is fuzzy....

Activation is not a state of being, its a commitment to a creature taking its turn and allowing a moment for effects to occur as noted in the rules:

"Note: As soon as you activate a creature and flip its action marker, your opponent can reveal any hidden enchantments (see “Revealing Enchantments” on page 18). You must give your opponent a chance to reveal his enchantments before you decide which action you want to take with your creature."

Lets look at it with another card, Stumble. When this creature activates you have the option to reveal stumble. If you don't then you have missed the activation window.


If it said "during this mages turn" then it could be anytime, but the wording on Activation leads me to believe that the cowl only triggers when you activate your mage and before you declare any actions

Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 08:15:58 PM »
Well that is the discussion here.

I agree with your interpretation, but others in this thread believe you can cast a creature and still be in your activation and therefore they believe you can put a guard token on that creature with the Packleader's Cowl.

If they are right, then I suggest that the Codex definition of Activation is changed to clearly state that the action is part of the activation and hence the Activation and Creature Action Phase are really one and the same thing.

If you and I are right, the codex could perhaps avoid questions like the one from the OP by adding a sentence that a Creature Action Phase consists of an activation and an action.

Looking at this thread somehow there appears to be confusion.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 09:16:52 PM by Donovan »
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Zuberi

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 11:38:28 PM »
Activate = verb. the act of Activating a creature, consisting entirely of flipping over the creature's Action Marker to indicate it has begun an Action Phase. (also remove the guard marker if it has one)

That's basically the game term in a nut shell. It doesn't last for any length of time at all. A creature has either been activated or it hasn't, and there is no time period during the act of Activating a creature in which you could do anything else. After Activating a creature though, it is in the midst of an Activation (noun) until it's Action Phase ends, i.e. it's Activation is equal to the time it is Active. Basically, Donovan is correct that an Activation is synonymous with an Action Phase.

So, since an Activation is synonymous with Action Phase, why didn't they choose to write Action Phase instead? Very simple. All of our previous conversation was in regards to Mage Wars Arena because that's the context in which the question was posted. However, this card was released in Academy and despite many similarities, Academy is a different game from Arena. Action Phase actually means an entirely different thing in it. There are not separate Action Phases for each creature, or even for each mage in Academy. There is only one Action Phase during which the players take turns Activating creatures. So, the terms are not synonymous in that game. This is covered in the Academy Rulebook pages 8 and 9. So saying "During this Mage's Action Phase" would have been gibberish in Academy.

Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 04:15:02 AM »
Thanks for the clarification.

I suggest this finds its place into the Codex 3.1, because I think to some players the word Activation could intuitively mean "the act of making your creature active" - or flipping its action marker.

The Codex describes the verb Activate. This has been clearly described as the act of choosing a creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token. This is in line with what you said above. It does not include the actual action, but describes the beginning of a Creature Action Phase.

But according to the ruling above, the noun Activation is not the thing that happens while Activating. Instead, the Activation is synonymous with the complete Creature Action Phase. The noun is not in the codex, although I think it plays at least the same important role as the verb Activate - if not more important.

Because I think in terms of semantics this might be counter-intuitive to some players, my suggestion is to include the noun Activation in the Codex as well, describing it as a synonym for the entire Creature Action Phase and indicating the Activation is started by Activating your creature.
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Zuberi

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 05:41:40 AM »
An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:

Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.

Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.

It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.

Coshade

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 07:18:32 AM »
So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?
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iNano78

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 08:14:53 AM »
So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?

I think the second move is just your choice of quick action. It's treated like any other quick action. So if you're allowed to, say, move + quick melee attack followed by Packleader's Cowl, then I can't see why you couldn't double-move followed by Packleader's Cowl.
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Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2016, 09:36:34 AM »
An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:

Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.

Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.

It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.

I understand your point. I'm just saying that I think it might be an understandable mistake if players believe activation and activating are the same thing. That would be a logical and intuitive way of thinking I think.

But as you outlined, in Arena Activation means the entire Creature Action Phase, while Activate is the act of choosing the creature, flipping its action marker and removing its guard token.

Something like this:

Begin Action Stage
   First Quickcast Phase

   Begin Creature Action Phase
      Quickcast Action

      Begin Activation
         Activating (uninterruptible)
            Choose creature
            Flip Action Marker
            Remove Guard token (if any)
         Action(s)
      End Activation

      Quickcast Action
   End Creature Action Phase

   Next Creature Action Phase
   Next Creature Action Phase
   ...
   Last Creature Action Phase
   Final Quickcast Phase
End Action Stage
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