October 17, 2019, 01:08:38 PM

Author Topic: Packleader's Cowl  (Read 3878 times)

Kharhaz

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 12:22:57 PM »
An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:

Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.

Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.

It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.

Zuberi taking us to school again! :P

So over simplification in Arena: Activate -> pause for enemy reveal option -> Mages Activation / Action phase ( i.e. turn) -> End Turn / Activation / Action Phase


Which would mean that Conjurations like ToL happen after a creature has been selected for activation but before it takes its action ya?


Zuberi

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 03:16:17 PM »
From the way I understand it, an Activation lasts from the time you Activate the creature until the time you finish acting with the creature. Which is the exact same thing as the creature's Action Phase. With that understanding, let's address these questions:

So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?

I don't believe so, though the documentation doesn't go into a lot of detail on when exactly your Activation/Action Phase ends. Page 9 of the Arena Rules has this to say: "When the creature’s actions are complete, resolve any effects that occur at the end of its Action Phase...After resolving any of these effects, the creature’s Action Phase is over" This is mostly referring to removing conditions like Stun and Daze, but indicates that your Activation/Action Phase does continue for a little while after you're done taking actions. Thus, I would think that you can still use the Packleader's Cowl after finishing your actions, and would go by the general principal that your Activation/Action Phase ends when you say it does; when you say you're done using the creature.

Begin Creature Action Phase
      Quickcast Action

      Begin Activation
         Activating (uninterruptible)
            Choose creature
            Flip Action Marker
            Remove Guard token (if any)
         Action(s)
      End Activation

      Quickcast Action
   End Creature Action Phase

Not quite. It should be a chance to Quickcast followed by Begin Activation/Action Phase. And it should end as End Activation/Action Phase followed by another chance to Quickcast. Quickcast happens before/after the Action Phase, not during.

So over simplification in Arena: Activate -> pause for enemy reveal option -> Mages Activation / Action phase ( i.e. turn) -> End Turn / Activation / Action Phase


Which would mean that Conjurations like ToL happen after a creature has been selected for activation but before it takes its action ya?

Conjurations like Temple of Light happen before/after a creature's Activation/Action Phase, just like Quickcast Actions, so if you want to use one beforehand, you'd use it before Activating the creature.

I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be. A creature's Activation is just synonymous with their Action Phase. Everybody seemed to understand how Action Phases worked before this thread, and they have not changed. This is just another word to reference them, which was only used due to the differences between Academy and Arena. Nothing has actually changed.

Kharhaz

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 03:44:05 PM »
I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be.

Most definitely,

The question came to be a "when does action phase" start; which is answered by "When you activate a creature and until the phase ends as per normal." Which is clearly stated at the end of that section where the clarification on when you can use a mages quickcast action

Stumbles unusual timing trigger had me thinking there was a difference between the two and there isn't, just opportunity for enemy to reveal

Coshade

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 04:54:34 PM »
From the way I understand it, an Activation lasts from the time you Activate the creature until the time you finish acting with the creature. Which is the exact same thing as the creature's Action Phase. With that understanding, let's address these questions:

So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?

I don't believe so, though the documentation doesn't go into a lot of detail on when exactly your Activation/Action Phase ends. Page 9 of the Arena Rules has this to say: "When the creature’s actions are complete, resolve any effects that occur at the end of its Action Phase...After resolving any of these effects, the creature’s Action Phase is over" This is mostly referring to removing conditions like Stun and Daze, but indicates that your Activation/Action Phase does continue for a little while after you're done taking actions. Thus, I would think that you can still use the Packleader's Cowl after finishing your actions, and would go by the general principal that your Activation/Action Phase ends when you say it does; when you say you're done using the creature.


This is definitely how I see it. Your explanation holds up with how I imagine the rest of the game handles, and makes the most sense to me. Thanks
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Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 07:33:45 PM »
Not quite. It should be a chance to Quickcast followed by Begin Activation/Action Phase. And it should end as End Activation/Action Phase followed by another chance to Quickcast. Quickcast happens before/after the Action Phase, not during.

OK, all clear. Here is for the archives:

Code: [Select]
Begin Action Stage
   First Quickcast Phase (1st mage with initiative / 2nd other mage)

   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)

   Begin Creature Action Phase

      Begin Activation
         Activating (uninterruptible)
            Choose creature
            Flip Action Marker
            Remove Guard token (if any)
         Action(s)
      End Activation

   End Creature Action Phase

   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)

   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
   Next Creature Action Phase
   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)

   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
   Next Creature Action Phase
   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)

   ...

   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
   Last Creature Action Phase
   Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)

   Final Quickcast Phase (1st mage with initiative / 2nd other mage)

End Action Stage

Hence Activation and Creature Action Phase are synonyms.

I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be. A creature's Activation is just synonymous with their Action Phase. Everybody seemed to understand how Action Phases worked before this thread, and they have not changed. This is just another word to reference them, which was only used due to the differences between Academy and Arena. Nothing has actually changed.

To be frank, I don't think that is entirely fair to the OP and others in this thread and other threads who did not intuitively interpret Activation and Activating the way it is supposed to be. I have not studied English, but I believe it cannot be considered a mistake when somebody expects an Activation to be the thing that happens while Activating (like a flight is what happens while flying or a creation is what happens while creating). However, this misunderstanding based on ones intuition leads to a totally different effect of the Packleader's Cowl.

Hence my request to add Activation as a synonym for Creature Action Phase to the Codex alongside with Activate, which is already there - describing the kickoff process of an Activation. This should avoid discussions like we had in this thread.

I'm not too familiar with all the roles of people in this forum and who is who. Is there an official way to request such an addition to the Codex? Or will it be picked up automatically from this thread?
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Zuberi

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2016, 03:43:00 PM »
Quote from: Donovan
To be frank, I don't think that is entirely fair to the OP and others in this thread and other threads who did not intuitively interpret Activation and Activating the way it is supposed to be. I have not studied English, but I believe it cannot be considered a mistake when somebody expects an Activation to be the thing that happens while Activating (like a flight is what happens while flying or a creation is what happens while creating). However, this misunderstanding based on ones intuition leads to a totally different effect of the Packleader's Cowl.

Hence my request to add Activation as a synonym for Creature Action Phase to the Codex alongside with Activate, which is already there - describing the kickoff process of an Activation. This should avoid discussions like we had in this thread.

I'm not too familiar with all the roles of people in this forum and who is who. Is there an official way to request such an addition to the Codex? Or will it be picked up automatically from this thread?

I apologize if I gave any offense. I completely understand how people may not have realized that they are synonyms, and my intention was simply to stress that such is what they are. Activation doesn't mean anything new and doesn't work any differently than what we are already used to. It's just a term we're not used to seeing.

Regarding the roles of people on the forums, you can see their position listed under their name (possibly under a self description). Only people with the position of Administrator are likely to be Arcane Wonders employees, and I'm not certain if all of them are. Playtesters and Ambassadors are not employees, but do tend to work closely with them. Even if an AW representative doesn't respond to a thread though, they are closely monitored and I'm sure your request has already been heard. The best channel to make such requests though is in the Player Feedback and Suggestions section of the forums.

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2016, 04:39:31 PM »
Being the OP of this thread I feel obliged to state that I never took any offense from any reply in this thread. I started this thread to have my understanding of the card's effect be affirmed. The answers of Puddnhead and Zuberi did just that. I also never found the wording confusing, but after reading the replies to this thread I think I have an idea of why someone could find it confusing. In the end this is more an issue of foreign language than imprecise wording. So I don't think clarification is actually needed because native speakers will easily get the meaning -- that's as precise as one could wish for IMHO.
I could imagine that AW is considering adding clarification nevertheless because they care so much for the game and the people playing it. That is exactly what makes Mage Wars so great and stand out from other games out there. Thank you very much for that Arcane Wonders!
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Donovan

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Re: Packleader's Cowl
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2016, 06:26:53 PM »
I apologize if I gave any offense. I completely understand how people may not have realized that they are synonyms, and my intention was simply to stress that such is what they are. Activation doesn't mean anything new and doesn't work any differently than what we are already used to. It's just a term we're not used to seeing.

Regarding the roles of people on the forums, you can see their position listed under their name (possibly under a self description). Only people with the position of Administrator are likely to be Arcane Wonders employees, and I'm not certain if all of them are. Playtesters and Ambassadors are not employees, but do tend to work closely with them. Even if an AW representative doesn't respond to a thread though, they are closely monitored and I'm sure your request has already been heard. The best channel to make such requests though is in the Player Feedback and Suggestions section of the forums.

No offense taken Zuberi. I was just worried that the need for clarification in the codex was explained off the table. I think sometimes it is harder for an expert to realize that something would be a great addition to the Codex. Whereas when you completely misunderstood a concept based on your understanding of languistics, you find it hard to understand why somebody would not be eager to add it. =;-)

I agree with Tyrann that MW is an awesome game. A strive for perfection should not be perceived as criticism though. I think it is not a bad attitude when one strives to update cards, rules, codex and supplements in such a way that you can play the game without having questions. Answering a question is important, but avoiding the question should be as important in my view.

Hope you see my remarks in that light as well.
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