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Author Topic: Battle Orders  (Read 2390 times)

Borg

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Battle Orders
« on: October 09, 2016, 06:49:42 AM »
Is there any chance that the Warlord's ( and Gurmash's ability to call ) Battle Orders would ever be changed from being a Quickcast Action to being a free, additional action ? ( with a mana cost of course and to be used once per round before or after friendly creature activation, just like some conjurations )

This would make Battle Orders actually being used/usefull imo.

Would there be any "broken" or "overpowered" consequences to this change ?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 06:54:54 AM by Borg »
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Kelanen

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2016, 09:55:04 AM »
I agree it would be a useful buff and they are very rarely used as it stands. That said, I'd far rather they completely rewrote Veterans first!

Super Sorcerer

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2016, 10:19:32 AM »
ב"ה
So battle orders would be given in upkeep similar to the way voltaric shield is decided during upkeep?
I believe it wouldn't make the warlords overpowered.
Personally, I find battle orders quite useful as they are, especially in turns I bring big creatures and don't have enough mana for any other meaningful quickcast.
While obviously the battle orders that anvil throne warlords got are better, I sometimes get to the conditions that make the bloodwave warlord's battle orders useful.
The horn of gothos with the anvil throne warlord is just awsome, since an entire arena "Quick March!" sort of spoils any attempt to position out of harm from your creatures (for the cases your opponent tries to abuse positioning this turn) and an entire arena "Hold The Line" is good on turns when your opponent is trying to focus on your creatures.

Since currently warlords aren't seen too often in tournaments, I wouldn't say that making them a little stronger would break the game. I wouldn't rush to make it a rule, since perhaps the Balista will be out soon, and it might eventually be "war mage only", which would make warlords significantly more competitive mages.

Borg

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2016, 11:00:31 AM »
So battle orders would be given in upkeep similar to the way voltaric shield is decided during upkeep?

Not really.
More like the way you can use a Corrosive orchid.
In this case : pay 1 mana before or after a friendly creature's activation and choose the Order to Give as a free action.

example : right before you activate your Anvil Throne Crossbowman, pay 1 mana, Order "Take Aim" and give your Crossbowman ( and every other friendly Soldier in your zone ) Pierce +2 on ranged attacks ( for a total of Pierce +4)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:03:40 AM by Borg »
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iNano78

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2016, 11:14:49 AM »
So battle orders would be given in upkeep similar to the way voltaric shield is decided during upkeep?

Not really.
More like the way you can use a Corrosive orchid.
In this case : pay 1 mana before or after a friendly creature's activation and choose the Order to Give as a free action.

example : right before you activate your Anvil Throne Crossbowman, pay 1 mana, Order "Take Aim" and give your Crossbowman ( and every other friendly Soldier in your zone ) Pierce +2 on ranged attacks ( for a total of Pierce +4)

I could see this being a Warlord-only equipment (perhaps Cloak?) that grants this ability. Once per round (use a ready marker to keep track), you may pay 1 mana before or after a friendly creature's activation and choose the Order to Give as a free action. This way, it isn't an errata and still has a cost to set up (similar to the Horn, which it combos nicely with).
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bigfatchef

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2016, 12:31:44 PM »
I don't think battle orders need to be changed since Anvil Throne can be played competitive very successful. He needs no buff with all runes he has!

So in lbs opinion only the other warlord needs some upgrade. I would say what really should get pimped are vet tokens. They should at least stack up so a tough soldier could get really strong. That would still be very situational and not the strongest ability.
Other ideas welcome!

Kelanen

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2016, 04:35:27 PM »
I don't think Anvil throne is competitive, and I've never seen it in the top half of a tournament.

It's not terrible, and it's miles better than Bloodwave Warlord, but it's middling at best. In fact I count 5 mages clearly better, and 3 more a bit better, but in the same general tier.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 02:01:11 AM by Kelanen »

Mystery

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2016, 05:17:28 PM »
I don't think Anvil throne is competititive, and I've never seen it in the top half of a tournament.

It's not terrible, and it's miles better than Bloodwave Warlord, but it's middling at best. In fact I count 5 mages clearly better, and 3 more a bit better, but in the same general tier.

you didnt watch arcane duels then. Anvil throne in my perspective is quite competetive

bigfatchef

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2016, 05:22:02 PM »
I don't think Anvil throne is competititive, and I've never seen it in the top half of a tournament.

It's not terrible, and it's miles better than Bloodwave Warlord, but it's middling at best. In fact I count 5 mages clearly better, and 3 more a bit better, but in the same general tier.
I didn't say he is top tier like druid or wizard, but played as tank he is pretty tough. Not to compare with bloodwave!

Kelanen

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2016, 02:03:01 AM »
I didn't say he is top tier like druid or wizard,

Then we are differing on terms - that's what I'd call not competitive. That doesn't mean it can't win, far from it, but it's not the optimal choice to take.

Halewijn

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 05:59:02 AM »
I have almost never used battle orders . Its just not worth the action...

I think they are by far the worst abilities. Wounded prey and veterans are pretty shitty as well, but at least you have a small chance to get some use out of it. How they are now, I wouldn't notice the difference if they simply didn't exist.
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bigfatchef

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2016, 06:06:53 AM »
I didn't say he is top tier like druid or wizard,

Then we are differing on terms - that's what I'd call not competitive. That doesn't mean it can't win, far from it, but it's not the optimal choice to take.

I get your point and agree.
Last tournaments I played and had in mind were with different mages per player each round.

Sailor Vulcan

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Battle Orders
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2016, 08:15:16 AM »
Have you guys even seen the new war spells in PvS? The reason that the warlord is unable to take advantage of his battle orders is because the way he was designed to play doesn't really work in the pre-PvS metagame.

He pays x3 for arcane spells. That means he should be using few to no dispels, seeking dispels etc. instead he should rely on harshforge monolith and harshforge plate. That means he needs to run much fewer enchantments so that he doesn't have to pay as much upkeep from the monolith. That means he has to rely on his incantation commands spells more. Most commands are incantations. Sure they're only one use per card, but they can't be dispelled, and most of them are not worth wasting a nullify or arcane ward against. And taking a look at cards like the helm of command, helm of command is a much cheaper alternative to Mage Wand. It costs only a one mana quick spell to change the bound spell, which means that he can either use battle forge and pop out a new helm of command really cheaply, or have a swarm of soldiers so that using his own quickcast to change the bound spell doesn't put him behind in actions.

The problem is that the warlord's comjurations are weak to fire and cannot be placed adjacently to each other, and he has to pay 6 spell points for a teleport. This makes his setup REALLY slow, and makes him struggle against anyone who uses tangle/stranglevines. If he's using a swarm his setup is too slow, but if he's using a buddy or two buddies, it will take him too many actions to keep destroying the tanglevines.

Fortunately there are some spells in PvS that address these fatal weaknesses. For example, there's that hill terrain and then there's that boots that give anchored and unmovable. I might be remembering wrong, but I think that non-flying creatures moving into the hill's zone from two particular sides have the slow trait. (Because they're walking UP the hill). The hill will slow down enemies trying to approach him, giving him more time to set up.

And giving the warlord both anchored and unmovable is a boon for his positioning, so enemy's can't teleport him anymore. Plus there is lesser teleport which is novice, and those gauntlets which protect his equipments.

I expect both warlords to be much more competitive after PvS.


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« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 08:19:07 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Kelanen

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 08:26:37 AM »
I have almost never used battle orders . Its just not worth the action...

I think they are by far the worst abilities. Wounded prey and veterans are pretty shitty as well, but at least you have a small chance to get some use out of it. How they are now, I wouldn't notice the difference if they simply didn't exist.

Actually I think Veterans and Wounded Prey are worse, but I'll admit we are splitting hairs on what's at the very bottom of the barrel.

Veterans is awful - it can't trigger against solo mages, and generally won't trigger meaningfully against buddy builds. It can and will against swarms, but then it can't trigger more than once per creature, so it's not even like you get a big payback there. Too many restrictions, and the one it should have (Soldiers) isn't present. Veterans should be errated to say "Whenever a Soldier comes into play under your control, put a Veteran token on it" - then it's always predictably useful, and based on your book, not your opponents. It gives a decent, but not broken power increase to what is widely held as the worst mage, and almost universally held as in the bottom two.

Wounded Prey similarly suffers from restrictions - it can't target the mage, and it can't target non-living, then it only works once they are damaged, but not yet dead. So between those you can rule out all solo-mages, all necromancers, anyone leaning heavily on golems, elementals, incorporeal creatures, etc and you can rule out L1 swarms too for the most part. For the small part of the metgame left you then have a reasonable boost, but one that ill fits the mage that gets it.

Both Veterans and Wounded Prey both suffer from the problem that they are only useful maybe a third of the time (if we are generous), and they don't come close to paying off sufficiently when they do. My pet theory is that when MW was being designed, and early testing, it was seen as a more 'thematic' epic battle with hordes of creatures on both sides. In that environment, both abilities are perfectly reasonable (as is Priest's Holy Avenger - the third contender on everyone's list of worst mages). Exposure to a full playerbase, competitive play, etc has refined ideas and playstyles a lot, and those kind of army vs army matchups are a minority, not majority. I doubt they were designed as obviously bad abilities, I think they were designed as reasonable abilities for a metagame prediction that turned out to be false.

Battle Orders are both better and worse than Veterans and Wounded Prey. They give a better ability, with three choices, one of which is almost always worth something in most scenarios. They are worse, because they cost an action to use, and an always useful minor ability is rarely worth an action. Any Warlord that finds himself with spare actions and/or not enough mana for a 'proper' spell on anything like a routine basis should be playing Meditation Amulet - and many of them do. If you have 1 mana, and an amulet, you will almost always meditate over casting a Battle Order, so really they are only used for books that don't plan on this circumstance, but just occasionally end up in it once in a blue moon. I agree changing Battle Orders to a Ready marker 'free action' would then see them being used.

Kelanen

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Re: Battle Orders
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2016, 08:48:19 AM »
Have you guys even seen the new war spells in PvS?

Yes - seen them, studied them, built with them.

The reason that the warlord is unable to take advantage of his battle orders is because the way he was designed to play doesn't really work in the pre-PvS metagame.

It doesn't work much better after it either. There are a handful of spells that really help them, but not much more than other mages (and Anvil Throne gains more than Bloodwave), and it doesn't change the basic proposition of them.

Fortunately there are some spells in PvS that address these fatal weaknesses. For example, there's that hill terrain and then there's that boots that give anchored and unmovable. I might be remembering wrong, but I think that non-flying creatures moving into the hill's zone from two particular sides have the slow trait. (Because they're walking UP the hill). The hill will slow down enemies trying to approach him, giving him more time to set up.

You are remembering it wrong, but not significantly - there are no sides involved. Steep Hill is a great card, but it costs almost an entire turns mana at 8, and it suits a ranged combat book - something that many beat Warlords at. Steep Hill will definitely see play, but expect Wizards and Priestess' to get more out of it.

And giving the warlord both anchored and unmovable is a boon for his positioning, so enemy's can't teleport him anymore. Plus there is lesser teleport which is novice, and those gauntlets which protect his equipments.

Yes it's great - and whilst Warlord (and every other book) will use Lesser Teleport, it doesn't solve many of his problems. It helps a little though.

The boots are great, but easily got rid of where it matters - Champions Gauntlets does nothing to protect them - it only protects Ring, Weapon and Shield slots; all weak slots for a Warlord, it's only real impact will be protecting his wand. Lastly Crumble completely bypasses Harshforge Plate. Every mage that doesn't plan on a physical attack or magecast creature summon most turns will be running Crumbles. Most books I build, and have seen, keep one Dissolve and switch the rest for Crumbles. Crumble was a big hit against what (certainly prior to PvS) was a Warlord's most powerful card - Harshforge Plate.

I expect both warlords to be much more competitive after PvS.

More competitive? Almost by definition, yes, releasing a new set with a large number of in school cards for him has to make him better, but not much, relative to everyone else. Bloodwave will still be in last place, and Anvil Throne will still be nearer the bottom than the top...