December 17, 2017, 09:00:32 PM

Author Topic: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)  (Read 5535 times)

bigfatchef

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Errata always is a big thing so I won't try to go into that direction.
Playing mages with big disadvantages is no fun, but by not using them I feel sorry for those mages. It's a waste. There are interesting game mechanics and tactics to play with.
So I am searching for a houseruling on mage abilities that would level them out as good as possible. Changes should be simple and easy to remember.

My changes would be:
Priest
Holy Avenger comes into play active
Holy Avenger gets his bonus also if no damage got dealt
Additonal burn is for free
(Nice possible wording in reply 17)

Johktari
quick summoning instead of fast

Beastmaster
Fast instead of quick summoning
(See detailed Description for swap of beastmasters abilities here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17103.0)

Anvil Throne warlord
Battle orders as free additional action (once per round...)

Bloodwave warlord
Battle orders as free additional action (once per round...)
For 2 mana Soldiers start with 1 vet token
Vet tokens get also ranged+1
(Discussion about warlord abilities can be found here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17288.0)


What do you think about this list? Is it complete?
I know that it would not make them all top tier, but at least close.

EDIT: changed ideas to best ideas till now.
Remaining question:
1 Priest gets damage barrier?
2 price for vet tokens ok?
3 maximum amount of vet tokens needed?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 05:02:31 PM by bigfatchef »

Sailor Vulcan

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Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2016, 05:21:08 AM »
Better to just switch the warlords' battle orders just like you switched beastmasters' fast and quick summoning.

As for the priest I don't think giving him extra channeling is the right way to do it. 9 channeling does not make a Mage weak. Arraxian crown Warlock is perfect example. I think it's important to keep in mind what the priest actually wants to do. His burn-dealing ability means he wants to be attacking. And his holy avenger either means he wants enemies to attack him, or he wants to force enemies to choose between attacking him or his things or his holy avenger, or he wants to force enemies to choose between attacking him or his things and incurring some other cost. Like if they attack the priest or one of his friendly creatures he'll spend some mana to heal himself and he'll get a boost for his holy avenger.

But if they don't attack the priest or any of his creatures, then the priest will have more mana to spend on something else because he won't need to cast healing spells.

With this in mind, what might be changed to open up the priest's pool of viable strategies and make it more clear to players how they can best make use of him?


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Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2016, 06:08:34 AM »
About Veterans : I think giving each Soldier a vet token when summoned is probably strong enough.
Playing a soldier swarm they could really add up.
+1 attack / +1 armor is actually a great bonus, certainly if every soldier gets it.
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Boocheck

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 06:23:32 AM »
I partially agree with Sailor about switching battle orders between those two. But Priest with 10 is the change i would really welcome :)

For Vet tokens - When summoning soldier, pay 3 (or 2) more mana and put a Vet token on him. Vet can be also obtained as normal, but thats it.

We trided Johktary/Straywood switch and it worked greatly :)

If only there was something like MAGE BOX expansion, giving this all changes, errated cards, some alternate mages to existing one and transition for Academy mages while introducing "padawan" mode :)
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 09:17:17 AM »
Whilst I think a lot of these changes are needed, I wouldn't agree with some of your detail...

Johktari
quick summoning instead of fast

Beastmaster
Fast instead of quick summoning
(See detailed Description for swap of beastmasters abilities here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17103.0)

I think Quick Summoning should swap with Wounded prey (losing Fast defeats the point).
I would also tend to swap the Melee and Archery abilities, but feel much less strongly on those.


Bloodwave warlord
Battle orders as free additional action (once per round...)
Soldiers start with 1 vet token
vet tokens can stack.
(Discussion about warlord abilities can be found here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17288.0)

I think starting with a Vet token is enough, no more gained in play.

I agree with all the other changes.

Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 09:19:26 AM »
As for the priest I don't think giving him extra channeling is the right way to do it. 9 channeling does not make a Mage weak.

Yes it does. No 9 Channelling mage comes close to a 10 channeller (assuming count Druid as 10, which it really is).

Priest needs 10 Channelling more than anything else. He might want something else on top, but that is the start.

Arraxian crown Warlock is perfect example.

Agreed - it's a mediocre mage that will never be top tier.

Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2016, 09:29:03 AM »
Vulcan: the difference with the priest and the other 9 channeling mages is pretty big, so I really disagree there.
1) He is a holy mage, which is an expensive school to use right.
2) Unlike the paladin, his abilities do cost a lot of mana.
3) He has the priestess doing a lot better than him only because of that mana difference. Even with both having 10 channeling, the priestess has those awesome restore powers to support her big guys.



About Veterans : I think giving each Soldier a vet token when summoned is probably strong enough.
Playing a soldier swarm they could really add up.
+1 attack / +1 armor is actually a great bonus, certainly if every soldier gets it.

I agree. I think this would be too strong. Goblin grunt would have 4 dice, 4 life and 1 armor for 4 mana. Pretty crazy.

Still, I think killing an opponent is too weak. So I suggest:

"If a soldier creature deals damage equal to his level +2, the soldier gains a veteran marker. Each soldier can only have 1 veteran marker."

Veteran: "The soldier gains Ranged +1, melee +1 and armor +1.




While we are doing so much changes already. Give the necromancer poison training! Not for balance but for theme and gameplay.
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 09:40:12 AM »
Vulcan: the difference with the priest and the other 9 channeling mages is pretty big, so I really disagree there.
1) He is a holy mage, which is an expensive school to use right.
2) Unlike the paladin, his abilities do cost a lot of mana.
3) He has the priestess doing a lot better than him only because of that mana difference. Even with both having 10 channeling, the priestess has those awesome restore powers to support her big guys.

Completely agreed.

Still, I think killing an opponent is too weak. So I suggest:

"If a soldier creature deals damage equal to his level +2, the soldier gains a veteran marker. Each soldier can only have 1 veteran marker."

Veteran: "The soldier gains Ranged +1, melee +1 and armor +1.

I agree with the Ranged +1, but definitely prefer the simpler and better coming into play with Vet token. I don't remotely fear BW dominating or even being top tier with it.


While we are doing so much changes already. Give the necromancer poison training! Not for balance but for theme and gameplay.

I agree, but since the Necromancer does fine, I wouldn't push to errata it. If you are Houseruling a bunch, then yes I agree.

iNano78

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2016, 09:46:46 AM »
Vulcan: the difference with the priest and the other 9 channeling mages is pretty big, so I really disagree there.
1) He is a holy mage, which is an expensive school to use right.
2) Unlike the paladin, his abilities do cost a lot of mana.
3) He has the priestess doing a lot better than him only because of that mana difference. Even with both having 10 channeling, the priestess has those awesome restore powers to support her big guys.



About Veterans : I think giving each Soldier a vet token when summoned is probably strong enough.
Playing a soldier swarm they could really add up.
+1 attack / +1 armor is actually a great bonus, certainly if every soldier gets it.

I agree. I think this would be too strong. Goblin grunt would have 4 dice, 4 life and 1 armor for 4 mana. Pretty crazy.

Still, I think killing an opponent is too weak. So I suggest:

"If a soldier creature deals damage equal to his level +2, the soldier gains a veteran marker. Each soldier can only have 1 veteran marker."

Veteran: "The soldier gains Ranged +1, melee +1 and armor +1.




While we are doing so much changes already. Give the necromancer poison training! Not for balance but for theme and gameplay.

Another way to look at it: Arraxian Crown Warlock might only channel 9, but his abilities don't cost mana, and in fact he comes with extra life (38) to accommodate for his Blood Reaper cost. Similarly, Adramelech Warlock's abilities are free, and Fireweaving doesn't even cost an action. Meanwhile, Priest's Avenger has an added mana cost (similar to Beastmaster's Pet) AND his Malakai's Fire ability also costs mana. Combine this with the fact that his melee attack is too weak on its own (e.g. needs a Light damage weapon or at least Bear Strength in order to bring it on par with Straywood Beastmaster's or Arraxian Crown Warlock's basic melee with Battle Skill, which is free each round), and you quickly see how he's at a disadvantage even as a melee/buddy mage.  Straywood Beastmaster, with Pet and Battle Skill, is already a better "buddy" mage than Malakai Priest, with Avenger and Malakai Fire ability, assuming the only card they cast is a creature (to make Pet/Avenger). And that's before factoring in how comparatively good/necessary all the Nature enchantments are to buff your self/buddy.
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bigfatchef

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2016, 10:26:27 AM »
Thank you all four your feedback so far! As soon as I get the feeling we all agree more or less I will update the opening post for better overview.

Priest:
I agree with all reasons here and stay with channeling 10. Another idea could have been to burn for free instead of one mana.

Johktari and straywood:
has ranged +1. Fast just doesn't cooperate with that. Swapping wounded prey instead is no help here. I'll stay with swapping qucksummon and fast. Straywood as fast melee fighter needs his higher life (that was mentioned in that linked thread. So no swapping on that needed)

Warlords:
I totally agree on adding vet marker on soldiers when they are summoned. Also I agree on not stacking them up. That could be overdose. But I propose that those vet markers cost 1 mana. So they are comparable to anvils runes and fit in line.
I am not sure about swapping battle orders yet. Also if they should be a free additional action. More feedback needed. I have to admit I never really used them, so I can't tell out of my head who has which orders. There are always better things to do than using a battle order.

Necro
Yes, for thematic reasons that training would fit perfect, bin on the other hand he is already very strong and needs no further help. For simplicity I would also not change him.

DevilsVendetta

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2016, 11:17:22 AM »
Copying a post I just made in another thread regarding the Priest/Holy Avenger and the biggest change needed the ability beyond even the Channeling.

Quote
The problem with Holy Avenger is unlike Pet there's qualifications to the Melee bonus. The Pet ALWAYS has +1 melee and if you follow it around as the Beastmaster, it's +2. The Holy Avenger NEEDS the opponent to attack something else, NEEDS to delay it's action long enough for that happen, and NEEDS to be in a position to do that. All the opponent has to do is have more creatures, have 1 thing guarding in the same zone and the Holy Avenger will never be able to use it's bonus. It should be an inherent ability; not one with caveats.

iNano78

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2016, 12:01:28 PM »
Copying a post I just made in another thread regarding the Priest/Holy Avenger and the biggest change needed the ability beyond even the Channeling.

Quote
The problem with Holy Avenger is unlike Pet there's qualifications to the Melee bonus. The Pet ALWAYS has +1 melee and if you follow it around as the Beastmaster, it's +2. The Holy Avenger NEEDS the opponent to attack something else, NEEDS to delay it's action long enough for that happen, and NEEDS to be in a position to do that. All the opponent has to do is have more creatures, have 1 thing guarding in the same zone and the Holy Avenger will never be able to use it's bonus. It should be an inherent ability; not one with caveats.

^^ This is what I was getting at. I've had entire matches as Priest where the Avenger never got an attack bonus. Typically, it might trigger once or twice in a match. Compare that to Pet, which triggers on every attack for +1 melee and is easy to control whether or not it gets +2 melee.

On top of that, Battle Skill (e.g. +1 melee all the time for free, and 4 damage primary melee attack that cannot be removed (aside from Weak conditions)) is generally better than Priest's Fire (2 dice with Stun on 9+ and Burn token for 1 mana). If the Priest's basic attack rolled 3 dice + bonuses, it would be about on par, and then maybe the Staff of Asyra (or Resplendent Bow) might not be mandatory equipment. I guess it does roll 3 dice when you add Dawnbreaker's Ring, but again, Battle Skill is free for a Beastmaster (or Arraxian Crown Warlock or Bloodwave Warlord) and impossible to remove, whereas the Dawnbreaker's Ring is going to cost you a quick action and 3 mana, and is easily Dissolved/Crumbled.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:24:03 PM by iNano78 »
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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2016, 01:41:23 PM »
About the Malakai Priest :

He's supposed to be the 9 channeling, more aggressive counterpart of the more defensive, 10 channeling Priestess, which makes sense to me and which I don't necessary feel should be changed
BUT ...
His abilities are too weak and should be upgraded to make him the melee terror he's supposed to be.

I'd suggest this :

Holy Avenger : 2 changes

- Make it so that the Holy Avenger comes into play active ( as if  a Rouse the Beast was played on him )
This would allow the Priest to go straight on offense and not lose any steam while summoning a ( new ) Holy Avenger. This would be a real power boost.

- Currently the Melee +2 / Piercing +1 triggers only when another friendly creature or holy conjuration is attacked & damaged. The bad part here which has to be scrapped is the "damage" requirement.
Make it so that attacking any friendly creature ( the Avenger included ) triggers the +2/+1 bonus.

It completely doesn't make sense imo to have such great creatures with a Defense like the Knight of Westlock, Guardian Angel, Asyran Defender and when they guard and their Defense "succeeds" the Avenger ability does NOT trigger because they weren't damage. if their defense FAILS, the bonus triggers.

Not only does the opponent control this ability because he decides whether to attack or not and with which creature, you also have to take damage .... That's not a good ability.

So : +2/+1 should trigger when any friendly creature or holy conjuration was attacked.


Malakai's Fire :

Once per round is OK but should not have a cost.


Hand of purification :

I'm not kidding, I think his base light attack should have the "Damage Barrier" trait.
That does currently not exist, I know, but think about it.
This would mean that whenever the Priest is attacked, during the Damage Barrier Step, the attacker would suffer a 2 dice, possibly dazing, Light attack.
This would be like a built-in anti swarm ability and make him a very dangerous creature to attack.

Altogether :
- Keep Channeling at 9
- Holy Avenger comes into play active
- Damage requirement is scrapped to trigger +2/+1
- Malakai's Fire for free
- Hand of Purification gets Damage Barrier Trait
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 01:43:07 PM by Borg »
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iNano78

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 02:18:41 PM »
Hand of purification :

I'm not kidding, I think his base light attack should have the "Damage Barrier" trait.
That does currently not exist, I know, but think about it.
This would mean that whenever the Priest is attacked, during the Damage Barrier Step, the attacker would suffer a 2 dice, possibly dazing, Light attack.
This would be like a built-in anti swarm ability and make him a very dangerous creature to attack.

Altogether :
- Keep Channeling at 9
- Holy Avenger comes into play active
- Damage requirement is scrapped to trigger +2/+1
- Malakai's Fire for free
- Hand of Purification gets Damage Barrier Trait

... Or just give the Priest Channeling of 10 and let the player choose whether or not to cast a Circle of Light (which will hopefully be released in an upcoming set).
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2016, 04:14:10 PM »
... Or just give the Priest Channeling of 10 and let the player choose whether or not to cast a Circle of Light (which will hopefully be released in an upcoming set).

I use Circle of Light, but my Priestess builds mostly get far more out of it!