August 22, 2017, 09:34:23 PM

Author Topic: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)  (Read 4534 times)

bigfatchef

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 04:25:24 PM »
Hand of purification :

I'm not kidding, I think his base light attack should have the "Damage Barrier" trait.
That does currently not exist, I know, but think about it.
This would mean that whenever the Priest is attacked, during the Damage Barrier Step, the attacker would suffer a 2 dice, possibly dazing, Light attack.
This would be like a built-in anti swarm ability and make him a very dangerous creature to attack.

Altogether :
- Keep Channeling at 9
- Holy Avenger comes into play active
- Damage requirement is scrapped to trigger +2/+1
- Malakai's Fire for free
- Hand of Purification gets Damage Barrier Trait

... Or just give the Priest Channeling of 10 and let the player choose whether or not to cast a Circle of Light (which will hopefully be released in an upcoming set).


Hey Borg, I like all of your ideas a lot. They seem thematically correct and filling the missing parts. BUT they are so detailed, that it feels like redesigning the priest. Do you think channeling 10 would level him also, so you could afford buffs and burns instead of reruling them? Or should adding a burn be a free action on top of channeling 10? Or are you hardliner for channeling 9 :)
I totally agree that HA should trigger a bit more often. After any friendly creature or conjuration is attacked seems fair. This is the one I would add on top of channeling 10.

What I see as a main problem between priest and priestess is their difference in channeling. 9 is so much worse, that the other abilities or his playstyle should even that out. But in reality also the abilities of priestess are very strong. Now there is completely NO WAY to repair this, because the two of them count as same magetype. Their can't ever be a priest only card, and that would be the totally easiest way to buff him without errata.

Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 04:37:28 PM »
I don't think Borgs ideas are off, but at this point you have designed a new mage - call it a Justicar or something...

If you can't do it in 1-2 ability changes of a short sentence or  less, then I think you are going too far.

Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2016, 03:52:07 AM »
If you can't do it in 1-2 ability changes of a short sentence or  less, then I think you are going too far.

Well, I agree, but those changes wouldn't be more than the elimination and addition of just a few words, just as preferred.

I'll strikethrough the text that can simply be scrapped and put the suggested additions in bold

Holy Avenger : everything stays as printed, except
... Pay mana equal to its level+1, flip its action marker to the active side and place the Holy Avenger marker on it.
... if that creature attacked and damaged another a friendly creature ...

Malakai's Fire : everything stays as printed, except
... he may pay 1 mana to place a Burn condition on that creature.

Hand of Purification : attack line stays as printed, just add
Vigilant Trait

So there are only 7 words to scrap and 10 words to add
That's "minimal" right ? :)

.. and you'd have a hard hitting Mage. ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:44:56 AM by Borg »
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Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2016, 04:05:57 AM »
I agree with the avenger.

Making the burn free instead of 10 channeling is not bad, but you don't allow the priest to choose what to do with his mana. 10 channeling would give the priest oppurtunities to make new, fresh books and actually be some competition for the Priestess.

Technically, you wouldn't have an attack anymore. You cannot attack other creatures with a damage barrier. Also, I think a build in damage barrier is a bit over the top.

So maybe 10 channeling and the removal of the requirement of damage on the avenger?
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Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2016, 07:30:10 AM »
About the Bloodwave Warlord :

Battle orders :

It seems quite obvious that making the battle orders a "Once per round, Free action" is the solution to seeing them played.


Veteran Tokens :

If I compare the vet tokens as we would like to see them ( Melee+1 / Ranged+1 / Armor+1 )
with enchantments like Bear Strength, Rhino Hide and Hawkeye
I can only come to the conclusion that each Vet Token is worth at least 6 mana, not to mention it cannot be removed like an enchantment.

It sure would be way overpowered if this token was awarded for free to every soldier Summoned.

So, what are the options ?

1- If you'd still like to have unlimited vet tokens in play I think they should be costed at least 2 mana apiece, more like 3 mana ( to be payed on top of the creature cost when summoned )
However, since the BW is just a 9-channeling mage, this extra cost might prove a real obstacle and thus not yield the desired result.

2- A better solution imo would be ( taking the Anvil Throne Warlord as an example ) to have a limit of 5 vet tokens per game which could allow us to drop the cost for them to just 1 mana. Any vet tokens lost are lost for the rest of the game. This would put a cap on the bonus and leave plenty of options to play with.

3- If you'd like an option where the vet tokens are free, I'd suggest a rule of no more than three vet tokens per game

Personally, I'd prefer the 5 Vet Tokens per game for just 1 mana.
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SharkBait

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2016, 09:04:20 AM »
Making the burn free instead of 10 channeling is not bad, but you don't allow the priest to choose what to do with his mana. 10 channeling would give the priest oppurtunities to make new, fresh books and actually be some competition for the Priestess.

Not going to jump into this full bore because I don't agree with the premise of the thread. However, I take minor issue with the above quote. If you really think the priest has been fully explored and that there are no new (or even effective, for that matter) priest builds then I would encourage you to try again. There isn't a single mage that has been "fully" explored. There are some that have been developed more than others, but the possibilities are still pretty wide open across the board for this game  ;).
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Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2016, 09:51:34 AM »
There isn't a single mage that has been "fully" explored. There are some that have been developed more than others, but the possibilities are still pretty wide open across the board for this game  ;).

Now here is something I 100% agree with and which is basically the summary of my motivation to keep playing this game.

To try new approaches, new builds, "to boldly go where noone" ... enfin, you know that line ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 09:53:27 AM by Borg »
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Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2016, 10:37:01 AM »
What I see as a main problem between priest and priestess is their difference in channeling. 9 is so much worse, that the other abilities or his playstyle should even that out.

I'm not a 9-mana hardliner but I do have the feeling that giving the Priest 10 channelling is too simplistic as a solution and may in the end not make any meaningful difference as his abilities are still subpar.

imo AW's reasoning that the more aggressive mages channel 9 mana and the less aggressive channel 10 makes sense, and the Priest is supposed to be in the aggressive category.
That's why I think we don't need to change his channelling but to give a serious boost to his abilities.

Looking at his abilities it's not too hard to see where they are flawed ( requiring damage - thereby making a Defense a "handicap" - and not triggering when the HA is attacked himself ) or where it can be improved ( make the Burn free )

However, that would still not be enough, I think. He would still need more "bang".
So, what if the Holy Avenger came into play active ?
That would mean no tempo loss for the Priest, as he can summon and attack with the HA the same round.
It would allow him to walk straight into battle and summon the best possible HA there right on the spot and still have an attack that round.

If you think about it, it would be the Priest's alternate to Reanimate.
If the Necromancer loses his Servant all he has to do is pay up and the creature is ready to activate again next round. No round wasted on casting it again.
If the HA were active right away it wouldn't be such a loss of tempo each time he has to summon a new one and it actually would make sense to summon more low level Avengers.

Under the current rules you want to summon as few as possible HA's since you'll have to waste a full cast on it every time and both are not attacking that round.
Under my suggestion the full casts would hurt a lot less and it would actually let you gain more life out of the Ha ability. Summon 4 HA's and you've gained 20 life from it ...

At the same time the Priest should be a mage who's not afraid to be in the eye of a storm as he has Holy protection. That's why I suggested to give his basic attack also the Damage Barrier trait. Whoever melee attacks him should feel his wrath.
EDITED
Rather than a damage barrier, I think giving him the Vigilant trait would be an even better way to illustrate and effectuate this.
A Guard marker at the end of each activation to allow him a possible extra melee attack could be a great deterrent.

This may all take a lot of words to explain here but on the ability card it really wouldn't take that much space and words to implement at all ( see reply nr 17 above ).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:41:12 AM by Borg »
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bigfatchef

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2016, 10:50:31 AM »
Borg you got me with your explanation! I thought channeling up on 10 is simple and helpful, but I completely agree now. To boost his abilities is the better way to go. The HA that comes into play activated definitely puts some pressure in the game.
The only thing I don't agree is that damage barrier. I'd say a counterstrike trait is better.

Vet tokens:
I also agree that they are worth some mana. I would not put a cap on it, but let them cost 2. But maybe 1 is enough? As a cap you could say that ranged+1 is not added. It would then stay a boost for a melee army. Still not sure about this.

Battle orders:
Free action seems great.

Thanks for the ideas so far!

Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2016, 10:55:30 AM »
The only thing I don't agree is that damage barrier. I'd say a counterstrike trait is better.

I thought "Counterstrike" at first too, until I realised that Counterstrike counts all melee +1 abilities.
That would be mad :)

Which makes me just realize ..... there is another ability which is easier to implement and which may serve the same purpose : Instead of the Damage barrier, give the priest the Vigilant trait.
An automatic Guard marker at the end of his turn, allows him to summon/attack and still deal some extra damage in case he's melee attacked... food for thought
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:31:23 AM by Borg »
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Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2016, 11:59:45 AM »
There isn't a single mage that has been "fully" explored. There are some that have been developed more than others, but the possibilities are still pretty wide open across the board for this game  ;).

Every "special" priest I've seen is worse than if he would be a priestess. So yes, I think the priest is quite limited in spellbookbuilding. Of course you have infinite variations of the same strategy but I don't think there are currently many different good variations out there. Feel free to surprise me and share a spellbook.  ;)


I like some idea's of Borg, but he's currently designing a new mage instead of tweaking an existing mage.  :P
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bigfatchef

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2016, 01:02:12 PM »
I like some idea's of Borg, but he's currently designing a new mage instead of tweaking an existing mage.  :P
I thought so, too. But right now he is really tweaking a bit at 3 abilities without touching 9 mana. As he said scrape 7 words and add 10.
I guess with those changes he would still feel like the priest. Just with a chance to hurt someone.

@borg vigilant is a nice little buff. But as always guarding, you can't be guarded. The good thing would be it works only once a round, so it's not too crazy. But also without that, just burn for free, HA active summoning and HA trigger easier the priest could be doing well.

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2016, 01:26:42 PM »
tbh i think a lot of this is speculation and unreasoned guesses, darts thrown into the darkness so to speak. The beastmasters should most likely switch fast and quick summoning. The warlords should probbaly trade battle orders, but I dont remember what the reasoning that convinced me of that was and I can't find it on the forums anymore for some reason.

The Arraxian Crown warlock is NOT lower tier, he's a very strong mage and you would be wise not to underestimate him.

As for the priest, I think it's hard to say what will help him because it's hard for people to see how his abilities should be used. Holy avenger wants to punish enemies for attacking the priest or his other creatures/holy conjurations. Malakai's fire wants to make the priest's light attacks do more damage. (since a burn is effectively like an extra attack die except bypassing armor, and the chance to roll again for free next round if it does any damage.) Dazes/stuns want to make it harder for enemies to hurt the priest or his creature(s)/conjuration(s). Healing spells allow him to increase the staying power of himself and his creatures.

So most likely the priest wants to:

1. punish enemies for attacking his stuff. if they dont' attack his stuff his stuff lasts longer anyways.
2. Do extra damage with his light attacks.
3. Increase his creatures' or his own staying power with healing spells.

the priestess's abilities are more focused on healing. She increases her life and removes condition markers. The priest is more focused on attacking. Specifically, if he and his threats stay in game longer due to healing and dazes/stuns, they'll be able to attack more times. Therefore he's not quite as reliant on expensive melee buffs. Give the priest some piercing instead of melee buffs, and keep attacking with him and his creature(s). Heal him if he takes too much damage. Make sure you're using daze/stuns to make enemy attacks less likely to hit him. Anything that gets a successful 7+ daze roll you can attack back with your holy avenger.

Of course this is all just theorizing on my part, ive yet to see anyone actually play the priest like this. The closest i saw was someone who used a priest with mana denial rather than merely dazes/stuns+healing.
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2016, 04:19:36 PM »
The Arraxian Crown warlock is NOT lower tier, he's a very strong mage and you would be wise not to underestimate him.

I said mediocre - he's middling tier. I've never lost a tournament match against him (actually, I'm not sure I've lost a match against him).

He's not at the bottom, he's not at the top. If you ant to use the standard MtG tiers he's Tier 2 - honourable mention, but not what you'd ever consider taking into a tournament with £5000 on the line.

bigfatchef

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2016, 04:48:25 PM »
So most likely the priest wants to:

1. punish enemies for attacking his stuff. if they dont' attack his stuff his stuff lasts longer anyways.
2. Do extra damage with his light attacks.
3. Increase his creatures' or his own staying power with healing spells.
4. He wants to have a buddy as HA.

Whilst you are totally right that all ideas here are not tested, those proposed changes would keep your list the same.
1. You actually write „attacked“ on your list. Right now the HA only gets furios if damage has been taken.
2. The additional Burn would be 1 mana cheaper. As priest I often felt mana starved so that extra burn is not working all times. Change would help.
3. That's what holy school is good in :D
4. HA is pretty important for pressure. The idea to put him in play active is neat!

But yeah, it's all not tested. And nobody really  knows why the priest is as he is.

@sharkbait: no mage is fully explored. I agree and that's why I love this game. But I really think that it is a waste of cards if some mages just feel like a bad choice to play with. I mean they are still fun to play, but always with that feeling of lower chances to win.
My plan is (locally) to have all mages being played in fair matches. The premise is to add even more fun and variety to this game and to let our gaming group grow. I can't imagine you are against that.
Official rules stay as AW tells us for those who are willing to play outside. (All under the purpose they agree to these changes)