July 19, 2018, 04:34:29 PM

Author Topic: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)  (Read 7587 times)

Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2016, 05:48:00 AM »
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?
Two mana/token seems about right, but I would NOT add Range+1 to it simply because the BW can also give an order to give Range +1.
A Crossbowman with Vet and an order would as such be able to attack at range with 5 dice + Pierce +2 - seems a bit too strong imo ... ;) so melee & armor +1 for 2 mana seem fine to me.

Priest:
And 5 life is a good deal for 3 (level2) mana, even without further bonus.

Well, I don't agree there.
The purpose of the game is still to eliminate the opponent before he eliminates you and giving a creature +5 life is not really doing much to help you achieve that whereas +2 attack dice + Pierce +1 is much more effective in that regard, so I really think that all the built-in restrictions on the HA ability need to be removed ( Damage requirement and the HA himself being excluded - so this guy gets mad when you swing at his buddies but not when you swing at himself ? Come on ;)
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Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2016, 06:26:06 AM »
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?
Two mana/token seems about right, but I would NOT add Range+1 to it simply because the BW can also give an order to give Range +1.
A Crossbowman with Vet and an order would as such be able to attack at range with 5 dice + Pierce +2 - seems a bit too strong imo ... ;) so melee & armor +1 for 2 mana seem fine to me.

The ranged +1 would only count for the first roll. So, 5+3+3. Not Op.

So coming back to the actual quastion:
for houseruling funplay: What smallest possible changes would level those 3 obviously weaker mages out?

Priest is bottom tier, but not "obviously" weaker. His 2 siblings are simply better.

For the same reason I don't think the warlords are that much weaker than all the other mages. It would only become a real issue once a new war mage, with better (swarm) abilities than the bloodwave, would exist.
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Mystery

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2016, 07:11:10 AM »
So coming back to the actual quastion:
for houseruling funplay: What smallest possible changes would level those 3 obviously weaker mages out?

Priest is bottom tier, but not "obviously" weaker. His 2 siblings are simply better.

For the same reason I don't think the warlords are that much weaker than all the other mages. It would only become a real issue once a new war mage, with better (swarm) abilities than the bloodwave, would exist.

Anyone can read my general thoughts, but for people that feel them lower tier I would change following:

Don't limit Vet tokens to one per creature (this can apply some pressure, likewise as Kralathor)

Make the Priest channel 10 and cost the burns 2

Jokthari I would change wounded prey to also give range +1 (for her)


I don't think those mages are weak, but those are small adjustments if you want to house rule them if you are personally of the opinion in your group they are too weak.

Borg

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2016, 10:27:07 AM »
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?
Two mana/token seems about right, but I would NOT add Range+1 to it simply because the BW can also give an order to give Range +1.
A Crossbowman with Vet and an order would as such be able to attack at range with 5 dice + Pierce +2 - seems a bit too strong imo ... ;) so melee & armor +1 for 2 mana seem fine to me.

The ranged +1 would only count for the first roll. So, 5+3+3. Not Op.

Hey Halewijn,

I've been reading and rereading your remark and I simply don't understand what you're referring to.

Are you saying that the (suggested) Range+1 for vet Tokens would apply on the first ranged attack made only and not after that for the rest of the game ?
What do you mean with "5+3+3" ? Where does the Crossbowman get three rolls from ???

A Crossbowman rolls 3 dice with Pierce+2 as his standard ranged attack.
If Vet token were to give Range+1 that would make it 4 dice + Pierce+2.
The Release Volley Order could up that to 5 dice + Pierce+2 once per round per Crossbowman with a Vet Token

What am I missing ?
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Sailor Vulcan

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Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2016, 11:42:29 AM »
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?
Two mana/token seems about right, but I would NOT add Range+1 to it simply because the BW can also give an order to give Range +1.
A Crossbowman with Vet and an order would as such be able to attack at range with 5 dice + Pierce +2 - seems a bit too strong imo ... ;) so melee & armor +1 for 2 mana seem fine to me.

Priest:
And 5 life is a good deal for 3 (level2) mana, even without further bonus.

Well, I don't agree there.
The purpose of the game is still to eliminate the opponent before he eliminates you and giving a creature +5 life is not really doing much to help you achieve that whereas +2 attack dice + Pierce +1 is much more effective in that regard, so I really think that all the built-in restrictions on the HA ability need to be removed ( Damage requirement and the HA himself being excluded - so this guy gets mad when you swing at his buddies but not when you swing at himself ? Come on ;)

I would have thought that this myth that it's useless to attack enemy nonmage creatures would have been dispelled by now. Yes you have to kill the Mage to win, but defensive strategies still do work. Keeping your own creatures alive longer is a good tactic. Giving a creature five extra life for only 3 or 4 mana, and giving them an extra offensive boost on top of that should be powerful. The fact that the priest is not doing that well probably has little to do with his channeling stat.

The wizard is 10 channeling and his voltaric shield costs two mana every round that he uses it. And yet no one would say that the wizard is underpowered. And the forcemaster tends to pay a lot of upkeep.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 11:46:28 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Mystery

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2016, 11:57:28 AM »
Bloodwave: vet tokens for 2 mana when soldier summoned? And vet get also ranged+1?
Two mana/token seems about right, but I would NOT add Range+1 to it simply because the BW can also give an order to give Range +1.
A Crossbowman with Vet and an order would as such be able to attack at range with 5 dice + Pierce +2 - seems a bit too strong imo ... ;) so melee & armor +1 for 2 mana seem fine to me.

Priest:
And 5 life is a good deal for 3 (level2) mana, even without further bonus.

Well, I don't agree there.
The purpose of the game is still to eliminate the opponent before he eliminates you and giving a creature +5 life is not really doing much to help you achieve that whereas +2 attack dice + Pierce +1 is much more effective in that regard, so I really think that all the built-in restrictions on the HA ability need to be removed ( Damage requirement and the HA himself being excluded - so this guy gets mad when you swing at his buddies but not when you swing at himself ? Come on ;)

I would have thought that this myth that it's useless to attack enemy nonmage creatures would have been dispelled by now. Yes you have to kill the Mage to win, but defensive strategies still do work. Keeping your own creatures alive longer is a good tactic. Giving a creature five extra life for only 3 or 4 mana, and giving them an extra offensive boost on top of that should be powerful. The fact that the priest is not doing that well probably has little to do with his channeling stat.

The wizard is 10 channeling and his voltaric shield costs two mana every round that he uses it. And yet no one would say that the wizard is underpowered. And the forcemaster tends to pay a lot of upkeep.

the priest is not doing bad, he is just doing worse than the priestess in any case and that has to do with his channeling

Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2016, 12:52:48 PM »
Priest is bottom tier, but not "obviously" weaker. His 2 siblings are simply better.

If that's not 'weaker' and by quite a lot, I don't think we have a language in common here...

For the same reason I don't think the warlords are that much weaker than all the other mages. It would only become a real issue once a new war mage, with better (swarm) abilities than the bloodwave, would exist.

Just as well no-one gave Paladin the war school and a super-fast spawnpoint then!

KissBlade

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2016, 08:16:16 PM »
I think if Veteran tokens were allowed to stack and isn't restricted to Melee strikes, it should be fine.  Not only does it simplify the ability but you give a small buff to archer warlord as well.  (ranged creatures getting a +1 melee + 1 armor isn't the end of the world).

Also swapping Fast & Quick Summon on the two Beastmasters I think is incredibly elegant.  No reason why it isn't official.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:18:04 PM by KissBlade »

ClockWork

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2016, 08:36:24 AM »
I would never give up quick summoning on the original beastmaster. Fast is an trait you can get from an enchant, and has limited usage. Losing quick summon is a nerf to beast master. Nerf the wizard, swap fast and zap

But really, just allow wounded pray to target mages, its just a weaker Marked for Death.

Priest only really needs that 10 channeling he got cheated out of, maybe remove the once per turn restriction on his burn.

Interesting one here, what if the Warlords battle orders still were a quickspell, but you gained 1 mana when you used them rather then spending 1 mana. Cause you know, Warlords draw there strength from there armies, and cast better when riding high on that officer ego.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 04:35:29 AM by ClockWork »
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2016, 10:57:24 AM »
I would never give up quick summoning on the original beastmaster. Fast is an trait you can get from an enchant, and has limited usage. Losing quick summon is a nerf to beast master.

But really, just allow wounded pray to target mages, its just a weaker Marked for Death.

Priest only really needs that 10 channeling he got cheated out of, maybe remove the once per turn restriction on his burn.

Interesting one here, what if the Warlocks battle orders still were a quickspell, but you gained 1 mana when you used them rather then spending 1 mana. Cause you know, Warlords draw there strength from there armies, and cast better when riding high on that officer ego.

Warlock/lord typo aside, I'd agree with all of that.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 01:36:04 PM by Kelanen »

iNano78

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2016, 01:30:27 PM »
I don't really get why you'd want to swap Zap/Fast on Wizard/J-Beast. That would be weird. (Thematically wizards  aren't known for being speedy, and why would a Beastmaster have a built-in ethereal ranged spell?)

I get that taking Quicksummoning away from S-beast might seem like a nerf, but look at it another way. After the swap, you have one Beastmaster designed for summoning swarms of level 1 creatures while keeping her distance (Ranged +1, Quicksummoning, Wounded Prey; goes great with Lair and Hunting Bow/Spear and Marked for Death, maybe Wychwood Fairy, maybe Animal Kinship since she won't have the actions/mana for a lot of equipment), and one Beastmaster designed for buddy melee that the enemy can't easily run from (Melee +1, Fast, Pet; heavier on Enchantments and select equipment; maybe Fellella) .
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Kelanen

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2016, 01:37:06 PM »
I get that taking Quicksummoning away from S-beast might seem like a nerf, but look at it another way. After the swap, you have one Beastmaster designed for summoning swarms of level 1 creatures while keeping her distance (Ranged +1, Quicksummoning, Wounded Prey; goes great with Lair and Hunting Bow/Spear and Marked for Death, maybe Wychwood Fairy, maybe Animal Kinship since she won't have the actions/mana for a lot of equipment), and one Beastmaster designed for buddy melee that the enemy can't easily run from (Melee +1, Fast, Pet; heavier on Enchantments and select equipment; maybe Fellella) .

Instead of one good, one bad, you get two mediocre - I think that's worse than the current situation.

Halewijn

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2016, 03:01:31 PM »
I have played with both beastmasters with this houserule and I actually prefer it.

Yes, quicksummoning is hands down better than fast but not all Straywood beastmasters use their quicksummoning during a game. IF you want a beastmaster with quicksummoning, you still have a Johktari with a free (bad) wounded prey and good at shooting. Although I have to say that I also boosted the wounded prey in those games. We allowed it targeting mages too.

Instead of one good, one bad, you get two mediocre - I think that's worse than the current situation.

So, instead of one good and one bad you gain 2 good beastmasters but both a little more specialized at a certain strategy.

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2016, 06:13:12 PM »
Yes, quicksummoning is hands down better than fast but not all Straywood beastmasters use their quicksummoning during a game.

Show me a Beastmaster that doesn't use it., and I'll show you an improved version with a few L1 Creatures in it. I don't believe an optimal Straywood exists without making use of it, it's just too good.

ClockWork

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Re: Collection of changes to mage abilities to level them out (houseruling)
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2016, 04:43:24 AM »
I don't really get why you'd want to swap Zap/Fast on Wizard/J-Beast. That would be weird. (Thematically wizards  aren't known for being speedy, and why would a Beastmaster have a built-in ethereal ranged spell?)

Thematically it would be dumb. I only suggested that to as an attempt to balance all the mages.

Leave Straywood alone, and siphon strength from the Wizard
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