April 01, 2020, 09:57:27 PM

Poll

Which do you think may fix Bloodwave Warlord?

Trained in soldier spells
Can use two-handed equipment with single hand of choice
5-8 points more life
Starting mana bonus like wizard in academy, maybe more than 3 points
Pays 1 less mana, once per turn, on WAR conjurations
Change veteran to first time a soldier deals or receives damage = 2x their level
Bloodwave Warlord gains soldier subtype
Veteran tokens also include Ranged +1
Just throw that card away, keep Art for alternative Anvil WL

Author Topic: Fix Bloodwave Warlord  (Read 9615 times)

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2016, 04:48:00 AM »
If a Priestess or Priest were a cleric, they could turn a full round into 1 mana remotely at the temple, or build up one skull at the Alter of Skulls? Anything else? That don't seem super great. The priest needs all the help he can get.

It's not so much power level, as the sea of errata unleashed from going down this path. Honestly probably a couple of hundred cards could usefully have sub-types added (Incantations and Enchantments especially), but there are already calls for reprinted cards for missing subtypes already...

Nerfs are ok, but it's better to buff everyone into shiny golden gods, rather then nerf all characters down to lowest common denominator

I'm afraid that's where I disagree. I hold to Mark Rosewater's philosophy - you don't make cards as powerful as possible without breaking something, you should make them as weak as possible, whilst still useable.

Obsidian Soul

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2016, 11:32:45 AM »
The Siren is Aquatic.

While I agree that many of the Mages need balancing, there is a Golden Mean.  It is why they changed the Wizard to Air and Arcane only.  I think that it would be appropriate to give the Priest training in Fire and Holy, which would make him much more agressive.

ClockWork

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2016, 04:40:06 AM »
The Siren is Aquatic.


she is Merren too, thats the joke 8)
Siren is so cool

Super Sorcerer

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2016, 11:16:48 AM »
ב"ה
I like the Idea of allowing warlords to somehow become soldiers, but I wouldn't do it by errata.
Just like the Warlock got the Demonhide Mask that makes him a demon while attacking, so could the Warlord academy expansion include a "Soldier Cloak" that allows Warlords to be counted as soldiers during attack resolution (of either their attacks or attacks against them). It could also allow them to benefit from their own battle orders as an additional effect. If you are a bloodwave with that "Soldier Cloak", it actually means that your mage could get veteran tokens, as the destruction of enemy creatures could happen during attack resolution :)
If you want to help the bloodwave warlord more, then you could just create spells that make synergies for orcs, just like you have Slaknir for the goblins and Redclaw Alpha for canine.

Ganpot

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2016, 01:09:17 AM »
a goblin grunt could deal 2 damage as well to become veteran, deal or receive 2x level damage. Orc butcher only needs to roll 4 damage. Don't think either one of those is too hard to do, even without enchantments or orders.

Also want to point soldiers not in school are awesome, tons of skeletons, tons of holy dudes(KnightofWestlock) tons of stuff from PvsS

The impact of soldier subtype is pretty big, orders plus some incantations, veteran token for himself and armory. Soldier subtype is way big, not way small
The 2x damage change would be fine for Orc Butchers, because they have have a decent amount of health.  Goblin Grunts, on the other hand, have 0 armor and 4 health, making them one of the easiest creatures to kill in the entire game.  Let's say you do manage to have everything go according to plan.  You get a fresh Goblin Grunt into position, get a good roll against a low-armor opponent, and it becomes a veteran.  You now have to wait an entire turn to be able to make use of the melee +1, and in the meantime, what are the odds that your opponent won't just murder your goblin?  Even with the armor +1, most level 2 or greater creatures would have a good chance of killing the goblin with either a 3 dice +1 piercing attack or a 4 dice one.  Sure, your idea is better than the official veterans implementation, but it still isn't ideal in my opinion. 

There are exactly 4 different skeleton soldier creatures (not counting Academy ones, if any).  Even if they were in-school, they don't seem worth playing over equivalent War creatures for the Warlord.  Mort is decent for his taint condition and survivability, but he's too costly to play without going all-in on a skeleton army.  Skeletal Minions are almost as bad as Goblin Grunts, and you can't buff them with Nature enchantments or heal them via normal means.  Skeletal Knights and Knights of Westlock are decent defenders, but if you want to go defensive just use Dwarf Panzergardes instead.  The only out of school soldiers I would even consider using (other than legendaries) would be the Skeletal Archer and/or Royal Archer, because quite frankly Goblin Slingers are terrible.  Skeletons are pretty much only good if you are a necromancer, because otherwise it is hard to get them to synergize properly.  If you want to play stuff that is nonliving and psychic immune, why not just use Iron Golem? 

I forgot about the vet token for himself, which would be weird but nice.  Still, I don't think a relatively free couple of armor and a melee +1 would make him competitive (and by your own rules, the Warlord would need to either take or dish out 12 damage before getting that veteran token).  You can already get similar buffs by slapping on a Rhino Hide or similar Nature enchantments (although of course those can be dispelled). 

I like the Idea of allowing warlords to somehow become soldiers, but I wouldn't do it by errata.
Just like the Warlock got the Demonhide Mask that makes him a demon while attacking, so could the Warlord academy expansion include a "Soldier Cloak" that allows Warlords to be counted as soldiers during attack resolution (of either their attacks or attacks against them). It could also allow them to benefit from their own battle orders as an additional effect. If you are a bloodwave with that "Soldier Cloak", it actually means that your mage could get veteran tokens, as the destruction of enemy creatures could happen during attack resolution :)
If you want to help the bloodwave warlord more, then you could just create spells that make synergies for orcs, just like you have Slaknir for the goblins and Redclaw Alpha for canine.
Agreed.  I can easily see Arcane Wonders coming out with a Soldier's Helmet or Soldier's Cloak card to give the Warlord the soldier subtype under certain circumstances.  Keep in mind, however, that veteran tokens do not stack, so the Warlord could only ever get 1.  The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures. 

Iudicium86

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2016, 02:30:07 AM »
I agree, the Goblin line of soldier creatures are terrible. I honestly do use Skeletal Minions over Goblin Grunts. only 1 mana more to cast, but 2 more health (survivability), is nonliving (immune to some effects), and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc. Which I think for the purpose of the Skeletal minions/Grunts is a massive bonus. Plus being soldier, the skeletal minions still get the Armory bonus of Piercing +1 and Armor +1. It was a very easy choice in my Warlord book.

The Dwarf lines are decent and do use them. And Orcs really could use a couple more.
But it is a school in which I feel too obligated to go out of school for the low level/low mana creatures. particularly Dark for skeletons or Holy for their Knight/Soldiers.

War school really does need more level 1 creatures that are worth any damn.

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baglio88

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2016, 05:54:36 AM »
and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc.

Wait, psychic immune can be dazed

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2016, 07:49:32 AM »
and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc.

Wait, psychic immune can be dazed

Yep - Daze and Stun are NOT Psychic conditions - you can get Undead and Golems with them etc. Nothing in the game is immune to these - think of them as a knockback effect...

Super Sorcerer

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2016, 01:02:02 PM »
ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
Obviously, the anvil throne warlord could use that synergy for his orc creatures. But the bloodwave himself is an orc, so the mage will get the synergy along with his orc creatures. For example, let say we have an effect that give all orcs piercing +2 for all attacks. For an anvil throne warlord this effect will make his orc butchers' attack piercing, but for a bloodwave it will not only make his orc butchers' attacks piercing, but will also make the mages attacks piercing (and a piercing hurl rock sound really cool) because the bloodwave warlord himself is an orc.

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2016, 02:43:24 PM »
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.

What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...

Super Sorcerer

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2016, 03:06:56 PM »
ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.

What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...
Well, it's a response to what I said about making it also close the gap between the two warlords.
That is why I suggested an orc synergy, so when the bloodwave use it the mage get the bonus as well.

Nicho2222

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2016, 07:00:08 PM »
I also think that the problem with the Bloodwave Warlord is the quick commands.  I think there are a lot of better options for that action than the quick commands he has available.  If they were like the wizards shield (where they could be activated without a quick spell) or if they would stick around similar to the Paladins Auras I think they would be more useful.  I'd be willing to pay a little more mana if I could get something that would stick around or not cost an action. 

I like the idea of making the Warlord a soldier, but I think that it might make him too powerful.  There are too many spells like Conquer, the Battle Standard, and the battle orders that I think it might shift things too far the other way.  A boost to mana early, would be nice for getting out some of the conjurations that are essential to a Warlord book, but I don't know that if fits his flavor.  Heck, making the outposts, no longer have to be adjacent would be a small move that could help a defensive Warlord play style.

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2016, 07:09:51 PM »
ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.

What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...
Well, it's a response to what I said about making it also close the gap between the two warlords.
That is why I suggested an orc synergy, so when the bloodwave use it the mage get the bonus as well.

Ah, I misunderstood.

I think orcs, goblins and dwarves are equally applicable to both warlords, and that isn't the way to go. My anvil Throne Warlord uses Goblins and Orcs, but zero Dwarves, and I suspect that's the most common way around.

Super Sorcerer

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 12:51:40 AM »
ב"ה
I think orcs, goblins and dwarves are equally applicable to both warlords, and that isn't the way to go. My anvil Throne Warlord uses Goblins and Orcs, but zero Dwarves, and I suspect that's the most common way around.
Let say for an example that we have an effect that gives all orcs piercing +2 to all attack.
The anvil throne could use it, and his orc butchers become better against armored opponents.
But when the bloodwave use it, not only does his orc butchers benefit but also the mage itself benefit since the bloodwave himself is an orc (the same way that a siren would benefit from the aquatic synergy, since she herself is aquatic). So when the bloodwave use that synergy, his orc butchers would benefit just like the anvil throne's orc butchers, but the mage will gain the benefits as well (and will get piercing +2 to all attacks, so we could see cool things like piercing hurl boulder).

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 03:36:38 AM »
Yeah, I get what you are saying, I just think it's the wrong approach to the problem. They need the fundamentals - mana and less actions taken up, not attack bonuses.