October 22, 2019, 07:14:26 PM

Poll

Which do you think may fix Bloodwave Warlord?

Trained in soldier spells
Can use two-handed equipment with single hand of choice
5-8 points more life
Starting mana bonus like wizard in academy, maybe more than 3 points
Pays 1 less mana, once per turn, on WAR conjurations
Change veteran to first time a soldier deals or receives damage = 2x their level
Bloodwave Warlord gains soldier subtype
Veteran tokens also include Ranged +1
Just throw that card away, keep Art for alternative Anvil WL

Author Topic: Fix Bloodwave Warlord  (Read 8626 times)

reddawn

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2016, 10:43:08 AM »
One big disadvantage of the Orc warlord are the battle commands. Actually they should be an advantage for the orc warlord, but most warlord player I know use instead other more powerful command spells from their spell book.
The easiest fix of the warlord in my opinion will be to improve the battle commands.

The outpost  rule is also a topic and can be fixed by adding a general outpost trait for conjurations:

Outpost
Friendly soldier creatures need only a quick action to move between friendly outpost conjurations.

I always thought that the Orc's commands were superior to the Dwarf's, as they should be, given the strength of the Dwarf's Runes.  You should always have the bigger picture in mind when playing the Warlord, and his Battle Orders let him do something solid for 0-1 mana if you realize you can't make good use of one of your prepared cards, need to save up extra mana to get out another creature, etc.                 

And the bigger picture for Orc Warlord isn't complicated, as you should generally be doing one of three things; summoning more creatures, adding more dice through things like commands and Rouse the Beast, or preparing heals to make sure your swarm stays alive.

Who knows ... maybe there will be a way for the warlord in the future to use his commands without wasting one of his precious actions.

Well, the Orc Warlord never really lacked for action quantity, it was more that without all the helpful expansion cards, the quality of his actions didn't scale well enough as the game went on.  Standard Bearer and Fortified Position are great, but he needs his Signet Ring and Armory, and some Acid Balls too.  The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.

Also, the Warlord does have a way to use commands without spending a mage action; Gurmash does that exact thing plus more.  He's not as strong of a caster as some other familiars, but he's also less expensive, arguably sturdier and has the best base attack of any familiar.

If you meant he should be able to use his commands without spending an action at all, that seems hard to balance.  Maybe give him some kind of amulet equipment that allows for that?     
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Beldin

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2016, 05:21:17 AM »

The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.

Sorry but this is a moot argument. My current toolbox that gets added to every book in varying amounts is from multiple sets.

Acid Ball (DvN)
Brace Yourself (FiF)
Crumble (Academy)

However the rest is core, you can compete with just core and core academy. I built a Straywood Beastmaster that way.

I would argue in your case that you could compete with just Core, FvW, and FiF; giving you all the tools you need soldier wise, all the toolbox cars you need (rust replaces acid ball). However I would still say that you pick the Anvil Throne over the Bloodwave for Arena.

ClockWork

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2016, 05:47:00 AM »
Decent in the less popular game mode means very little.

The scrutiny hasn't shifted, Blood wave (and JBM) have been trash tier for a long time (maybe even since their respective Day1).

Don't understand how anyone can defend Veteran tokens, or Battle Orders. His rule card is basically blank accept for battle skill.

I want to like this guy, I bought his expansion within weeks of release. He just does less than all other mages, and gets stomped on because he's terrible at most everything, and decent at..... punching?
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Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2016, 03:24:47 PM »
Decent in the less popular game mode means very little.

The scrutiny hasn't shifted, Blood wave (and JBM) have been trash tier for a long time (maybe even since their respective Day1).

Don't understand how anyone can defend Veteran tokens, or Battle Orders. His rule card is basically blank accept for battle skill.

Agreed. And all posts I make assume unlimited access to all sets.

reddawn

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2016, 03:41:53 PM »

The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.

Sorry but this is a moot argument. My current toolbox that gets added to every book in varying amounts is from multiple sets.

Acid Ball (DvN)
Brace Yourself (FiF)
Crumble (Academy)

However the rest is core, you can compete with just core and core academy. I built a Straywood Beastmaster that way.

I would argue in your case that you could compete with just Core, FvW, and FiF; giving you all the tools you need soldier wise, all the toolbox cars you need (rust replaces acid ball). However I would still say that you pick the Anvil Throne over the Bloodwave for Arena.

Money is not a moot argument.  While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.   

I'm not surprised you were able to build a fine Straywood BM book given just Core and Academy, because the BM is better positioned to deal with the fact that armor is basically overpowered given just the Core set, which also means smaller creatures quickly lose their efficiency.  Tooth and Nail and Redclaw, which only the BM can realistically use, preserve the efficiency of smaller animal creatures, and so his swarms were inherently more viable based on the card pool.   Once you add in the other cards that benefit swarms from Academy, like Slavorg, you probably can do a great job with a BM swarm playstyle with just Core and Academy, though you're still missing Meditation Amulet.

Wizard also was well-positioned at the time with Blue Gremlins and the best access to Dissolve, but he didn't really swarm past using Gremlins.  Which was usually fine outside zone attacks, because Gremlins are nuts.

However, AC Warlock and Priestess can't swarm given just those same sets, and especially not just the core set.  And that's fine, because they're good at their "solo plus a buddy or two playstyle" and they have alternate mage cards that focus more on summoning multiple creatures.

My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed.  BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.


I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything, Acid Ball is stronger than Rust (at least for the Warlord), for a few important reasons: 

1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.

2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block.  Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.

3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge.  On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points.  You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.   

4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage.  He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.


Rust by no means sucks, as it is less expensive and will always give Armor -2 (not just expected to like Acid Ball), but you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.

Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.   

~The End~
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 03:53:27 PM by reddawn »
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Beldin

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2016, 06:48:56 PM »
Money is not a moot argument.  While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.   


I disagree as that was not what I was calling moot. I was saying in response to your statement that Warlord has a weakness by requiring multiple expansions. Yes I went on to further say, as a side note that I built a BM with 2 sets. However I also stated that you could build Warlord with 3 sets.


My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed.  BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.

Again a side point to further the point you do not require all sets. Also the Warlord was fleshed over 2 sets with core cards as well. Basically the same as the Beastmaster.

I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything,

This game is about adapting and overcoming. The not having the acid ball in your book is no different from being in the late game where a creative opponent has removed the corrode counters and is on the same amount of armour. The rust is actually more reliable in the late game, it removes a set amount of armour which increases the result of any damage and is part of the plan B/late game out strategy.

1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.

Thats nice, so does Conquer.

2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block.  Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.

SBP do not matter. If they buy you the best tools available to you then I am happy to pay 12 SBP a time and have three, if they win me the game consistently.

3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge.  On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points.  You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.   

This is yet another example of the cancerous attitude that "as long as I throw enough mana and actions at it, no matter how inefficient then its a win" that is rife in these forums. The game is about killing the opponent before he kills you, by focusing actions and mana inefficiently you are less likely to do this. Mana + Actions >>>> SBP!!!!!

4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage.  He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.

A wizard can decrease his armour with the use of different chest pieces and assorted gloves and boots. This causes the removal of corrode counters. Yes he can prevent the effects, you are wrong.

you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.

This is a win more card, not a win card. Also this card does not control the dice only changes their probability of rolling more favourable results. I would add more dice before having a reroll.

Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.

That's your view, I do not share it.  I also will point out that the GenCon Aviary book does not use Meditation Amulet and won the tournament. I would say that proves your argument here to be incorrect.

reddawn

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2016, 04:20:33 PM »
Money is not a moot argument.  While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.   


1. I disagree as that was not what I was calling moot. I was saying in response to your statement that Warlord has a weakness by requiring multiple expansions. Yes I went on to further say, as a side note that I built a BM with 2 sets. However I also stated that you could build Warlord with 3 sets.


My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed.  BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.

2. Again a side point to further the point you do not require all sets. Also the Warlord was fleshed over 2 sets with core cards as well. Basically the same as the Beastmaster.

I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything,

3. This game is about adapting and overcoming. The not having the acid ball in your book is no different from being in the late game where a creative opponent has removed the corrode counters and is on the same amount of armour. The rust is actually more reliable in the late game, it removes a set amount of armour which increases the result of any damage and is part of the plan B/late game out strategy.

1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.

4. Thats nice, so does Conquer.

2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block.  Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.

5. SBP do not matter. If they buy you the best tools available to you then I am happy to pay 12 SBP a time and have three, if they win me the game consistently.

3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge.  On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points.  You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.   

6. This is yet another example of the cancerous attitude that "as long as I throw enough mana and actions at it, no matter how inefficient then its a win" that is rife in these forums. The game is about killing the opponent before he kills you, by focusing actions and mana inefficiently you are less likely to do this. Mana + Actions >>>> SBP!!!!!

4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage.  He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.

7. A wizard can decrease his armour with the use of different chest pieces and assorted gloves and boots. This causes the removal of corrode counters. Yes he can prevent the effects, you are wrong.

you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.

8. This is a win more card, not a win card. Also this card does not control the dice only changes their probability of rolling more favourable results. I would add more dice before having a reroll.

Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.

9. That's your view, I do not share it.  I also will point out that the GenCon Aviary book does not use Meditation Amulet and won the tournament. I would say that proves your argument here to be incorrect.

1. I can't tell if we are disagreeing or agreeing.  I'm going to assume we're agreeing, for the sake of brevity, because this is going to be a long post.

2. No, the Warlord was not fleshed out over the same amount of sets as the BM, and I explained exactly why he wasn't.  You need Core, FvW, Trolls from Kumanjaro (Panzergardes are also great), DvN for at least Acid Ball, and FiF for obvious reasons.  I'm not yet sure how necessary PvS is, still getting my games in, and you don't need Academy sure, but that's still 5 expansions, which is a significant investment.

3. Ideally, you should be using some combination of Acid Ball and Rust to attack armor from multiple axes of interaction, but if I'm playing Warlord, I will lean more on Acid Balls for the 4 reasons I stated. 

You don't provide an explanation as to why Rust is superior in the late game, but I can see how that is at least sometimes true, given that in the late game, mages will likely be sufficiently buffed and Dispels might be used up.  I would say that it really depends on the matchup, because while mages like the Priestess and Dwarf Warlord can innately deal with Corrode easier, that's not the case with other mages.  Other mages have less efficient ways of dealing with Corrodes that involve armor changing and using Healing Wand that are more vulnerable to disruption.

That also doesn't change the fact that Acid Ball is still superior for the other 2/3s of the game.  But again, I fully acknowledge that they are really meant to be used together, because that is when they are most effective.

4. Acid Ball is much, much better than Conquer.  Conquer is big SBP investment and requires further support beyond just paying mana and one action to actually pull off.  I've removed Conquer from almost every Orc Warlord Book I've played because it's too expensive, too unreliable, and too narrow. 

5. I'm surprised to hear someone say that SBP don't matter...in a game in which an entire mage character (Wizard) was nerfed almost precisely because SBP matter (also nerfed, I imagine, because he was hogging future design space).  Probably the biggest criticism for the Warlord is his 3x penalty for Arcane, and it is a valid criticism because Arcane really is an excellent school that provides fundamental cards that you must use in some quantity to succeed.  The need for Arcane has measurably decreased, particularly for the War mages, with the release of cards like Harshforge Plate/Monolith, Steadfast Boots, etc, but the need is still there.

Having less cards in your SBP than your opponent is fundamentally a big deal, as it is with any miniatures games that rely on an army point system.  In general, a smaller army is worse than a larger army; in general, more cards is better than less cards. 

But if you're convinced SBP points don't matter, try this; next time you play an opponent with roughly the same skill level as yourself, ask if you can use 150 SBP while they use only 100.  I doubt they'd consent to that.

6. Firstly, I don't appreciate you calling my "attitude," "cancerous."  I did not insult anyone; I just laid out my case for which I provided reasons and evidence.  Let's keep things civil.

Secondly, I gave a specific context for the play I recommended; that is, if you think armor stacking is so central to your opponent's strategy that having a potential mana and action inefficiency justifies increasing your SBP efficiency via spellbind cards.  Furthermore, it's not like playing an Elemental Wand with Acid Ball attached is somehow a garbage play...for a small mana cost and probably not even a mage action, you can throw Acid Balls at anything for the rest of game if you feel you need to.  I am in no way recommending someone make the play I said, unless that situation arises.  I am merely saying that the Warlord is well-prepared to fight that kind of contest and win, if he has to.

7. Did you read what I wrote?  I was referencing Voltaric Shield's interaction with Acid Ball.  Additionally, switching up your armor pieces in response to someone corroding your armor is not "preventing" corrode.  Prevention is by definition not allowing something to happen in the first place; it is not spending mana and actions to change something that has already taken place. 

8. I don't understand how you logically separate "controlling dice" from "changing their probability of rolling more favorable results" in a game that is all about rolling dice.  All Akiro's Favor does is control dice, because it allows you greater control over their outcome.  Increasing your dice count is often the better initial line of play, I agree, but Akiro's Favor is not win-more at all, unless you're seriously arguing that you are going to roll statistically expected damage the entire game, which is frankly not realistic.    The opportunity cost of playing Akiro's Favor at the beginning of the game for a small amount of mana and a quick action is very low compared to the probable payoff you're going to get.  This is even truer for mages who have effect die rolls on key equipment or attacks which have a less than 50% chance of occurring, or preserving the action of a buffed creature.

For any mage who has less numerous but higher quality actions, a solid two copies of Akiro's Favor is absolutely necessary (except the Paladin perhaps, who has a built-in psuedo-Akiro's Favor).  I would argue that Akiro's Favor is a bit less necessary for mages who have more actions but of a lower quality, but it is still strong enough that I always keep at least one copy as a low-cost option.

9. The BM has less of a need for Meditation Amulet, because of his innately more efficient attack action and higher life.  The Warlord is equivalent in that respect too, but I meant that Meditation Amulet, in general, helps swarms, not just the Warlord's swarms.  Not all Mages have the same needs even with a similar playstyle.

And if we're going to discuss the Straywood Aviary tournament result, you should note that 3 Acid Balls were included in the deck AND the champ concurs with my sentiment that DvN is critical to swarms.  For example:

(http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14540.0)

(Silverclaw asking Alexander West)

SCG: "Given that swarms, especially the Beast Master, have been given such a bad light do you see your victory changing perceptions?"

AW: "It's too early to know for sure, but I think the answer is yes.  Public opinion is a powerful force, and it's been against swarms for some time.  However, the tools have been there for swarms to work for a while (since DvN in my opinion), and it's pretty hard to ignore a swarm winning the biggest annual Mage Wars tournament."


So, it doesn't matter if you think Meditation Amulet is unnecessary for swarms or that one was not included in the tournament-winning book, because the best player at the time (for what it's worth) still fully acknowledged that DvN, and thus Acid Ball in particular (as his book proves) is necessary for the swarm playstyle.  That is the crux of my argument, and if you're going to use Alexander West as the authority on the topic, he thinks the same. 
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2016, 06:45:07 PM »
What's say we let this thread die....again. just saying nobody is gonna change any sides here.
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zot

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2016, 12:07:14 AM »
agreed.

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2016, 06:39:52 AM »
What's say we let this thread die....again. just saying nobody is gonna change any sides here.

That's why the Arena was created in the first place. ☺
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ClockWork

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2016, 10:27:14 AM »
so some people DO think he is as good as Wizard/Druid/Nerco/Priestess/ATWarlord?

Because if he's not.... don't we want to give him a gentle nudge in that direction?
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zot

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2016, 11:13:31 AM »
Yes, some of us do think that he is fine. Others do not, and that is why this thread has been going in circles, and the suggestion to end the circle by locking it, or informing such that no one posts any replies and it archives over time.

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2016, 10:13:40 AM »
Do these same people think that if bloodwave was given a little help, it would hurt the game? Do they think that if his veteran token could be used reliably, we'd see him as 50% of tournaments books, or that he might "over centralized the metagame and *excessively constrained viable spellbook design"?

I feel he could get a little better without destroying the balance of the game.

Do people see him played alot? Do we see him win?

I feel he is under represented, and that i am at some small disadvantage when I use him.

I just wanna make Bloodwave great again (or for the first time)
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