October 17, 2019, 01:10:54 PM

Poll

Which do you think may fix Bloodwave Warlord?

Trained in soldier spells
Can use two-handed equipment with single hand of choice
5-8 points more life
Starting mana bonus like wizard in academy, maybe more than 3 points
Pays 1 less mana, once per turn, on WAR conjurations
Change veteran to first time a soldier deals or receives damage = 2x their level
Bloodwave Warlord gains soldier subtype
Veteran tokens also include Ranged +1
Just throw that card away, keep Art for alternative Anvil WL

Author Topic: Fix Bloodwave Warlord  (Read 8603 times)

bigfatchef

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2016, 04:04:31 AM »
Warschool has very good spawnpoints including one for battleorders.
Warschool has good creatures.
Warschool has discount rings for mana..
Warschool has super conburations but a problem placing them all.
Warschool also has strong enchantments and incantations.
With PvS most of this even improved.

Warschool has a lack of arcaneschool so staples get expensive. I think with a growing cardpool there are more alternatives arriving. This problem will decrease.

After the thread I started a while ago I still think veterans should get ranged +1 as well and soldiers start with vet token if mana=levelbis paid.

What also could help is a ring that buffs attacks war only. But on the other hand it would be boring to have comparable mechanics for all mages. I like that he feels different.

Whatever changes might come, I hope it doesn't affect anvil throne since he is the best tank there is and needs no help.

ClockWork

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2016, 08:09:46 AM »
Anvil Warlord is pretty good, I consider her to definitely be viable. However the BloodWave needs help, its not right that there is an unspoken ban, that no-one will take that stinky trash-caster to the dance.

Something needs to be done to help the Bloodwave. The fact that Orc's are so poorly represented in this game is racist. Orc's lives matter too you know, guys. They just as good as Human or Dwarves or Elfs
Siren is so cool

Coshade

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2016, 10:51:06 AM »
I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option
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iNano78

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2016, 11:45:04 AM »
Bloodwave Warlord is actually pretty solid in multiplayer Domination, where Veteran's tokens, Battle Skill (melee +1) and at least 2 of his Battle Orders are useful.

For most mage pairs, I've built an Arena spell book out of one (e.g. Priestess) and a multiplayer Domination book out of the other (e.g. Priest). For Warlords, Anvil Throne is definitely the best at Arena, but Bloodwave is superior at Domination. For Warlocks, I currently have Arraxian Crown (curse-heavy with a buddy) for Arena and Adramelech (Pentagram-based Burn-fueled Imp swarm) for Domination. I have a Skeleton Necromancer for Domination and am working on a Zombie Necromancer for Arena. I even have 2 Wizards:  a mana-denial Wizard for Arena and a Gremlin swarm for Domination. I currently have a Druid for Domination only and a Forcemaster for Arena only. And I'm working on a Siren for Domination and a Paladin for Arena.

The only situation where it breaks down is Beastmasters. Straywood is currently better than Johktari at both formats, as Quicksummoning is amazing in Domination and his skills are still generally better in Arena. That said, I currently only have Straywood built for Domination and Johktari built for Arena... but Johktari rarely gets played (and I don't think I've ever won with her).
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ClockWork

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2016, 07:24:32 AM »
I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option

It also doesn't a vote for "Nerf Him" either, weird.

True though, Bloodwave is pretty good in Domination. L
Siren is so cool

Coshade

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2016, 08:48:59 AM »
Apologies on offending you sir. I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2016, 10:01:23 AM »
I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread

+1

The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.
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Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2016, 10:39:57 AM »
The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.

And everything he does, Anvil Throne does better...

I've had 4 Ballistas for years, and Steep Hill doesn't change enough. He's still the weakest mage.

wtcannonjr

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2016, 11:15:21 AM »
The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.

And everything he does, Anvil Throne does better...

I've had 4 Ballistas for years, and Steep Hill doesn't change enough. He's still the weakest mage.

Comparing ability cards between the two it appears that Bloodwave is better at rushing since he has +1 melee, more health, and more dice bonuses for offensive battle orders than Anvil Throne. As the pictures on each show he wasn't meant to use a ton of equipment like A.T. so I don't focus on Battle Forge lines of play with the Bloodwave. The creature images on the cards always show the Dwarves of the Anvil Throne mountains with armor while Orcs are more tribal looking. This helps me focus spell choices and strategies to reflect these nuisances. For example, I tend to focus on level 3 or higher creatures so they are more likely to remain in play once they achieve Veterans status. Trying to build level 1 and 2 creatures into Veterans is a losing gamble. As in war they have their uses. I.e. Grunts do the dying while the Veterans learn to survive.

Of course your mileage will vary. My regular opponent loves playing Warlords. Perhaps we will try some Warlord duels to investigate the discussion in this folder in more detail. I may be persuaded but I don't see it yet.
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Beldin

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2016, 02:37:52 PM »
I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option

Yes, agreed. I place him at the bottom of the tiers in Arena, However in Domination this mage is mid Tier 2. There is nothing wrong with the card himself as he is playable in atleast one format. Is the Anvil throne better? Yes.

Kelanen

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2016, 06:23:58 PM »
There is nothing wrong with the card himself as he is playable in atleast one format.

Personally I don't agree that 'playable in at least one format' is a high enough bar for any card, although I think it's inevitable.

This brings me back to how having 3 different Mage Wars games dilutes the quality of cards produced for Arena...

Not that Bloodwave fell foul of this - he was underpowered in the only game in town when he was published.

zot

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2016, 09:59:18 PM »
Apologies on offending you sir. I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread

   I am of the same opinion. Have not voted since my preference was not listed. I think he is fine too. Just have to play him differently than the dwarf.

   The wizard changes made both warlords much more unique, and possibly able to shine now. It seems since wizard has been updated, the focus on these minutia had to go somewhere I suppose, so the jbm and warlords are getting the scrutiny. I think that this is a circular discussion since I would guess it to be extremely unlikely that aw will make any changes to ability cards of any mages printed to date. The wizard updates were extremely elegant. I commend the aw staff for coming up with it. If they were to redress any mage cards, I would also guess it will be via new spells along the way in some fashion much like the hunting spear appears to be beneficial for the jbm.

   


reddawn

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2016, 02:22:01 AM »
Once I re-familiarize myself with the current state of the game, I'll be testing the Orc Warlord a lot.  Before I took a hiatus, I played him quite a bit and found him very effective, as long as you have access to all the great war cards from other sets like FiF.  That set, plus bringing in Trolls from Kumanjaro and Meditation Amulet from DvN, makes his swarm game very good.

You can't really make comparisons based solely on mage ability cards, because a lot of power of a mage isn't included there.  To the extent that it is, I don't even think the Orc Warlord's abilities are that bad, especially if you know the strategic value of Veteran and the commands, which is long-term swarm supremacy against other swarms.  Properly supported with Fortified Position, Armory, Standard Bearer (amazing card), Group Heals, maybe Etherian Life Tree and probably a Fog wall or two to mess with LoS (if you suspect a zone attack), your level 2 and up veterans should last a while and will eventually out-value other swarms.  Even your Grunts that manage to survive or are summoned mid-late game stand a pretty good chance of avoiding getting one-shotted once you have all of your swarm buffs online.  Some Rouse the Beast serve him very well too, unlike the Necromancer.

If I'm playing Orc Warlord and my opponent begins with some kind of spawnpoint, I'm feeling good about my chances in general.

Things are a bit different when I can't get reliably get Veteran, like when I'm playing against a more solo mage like Forcemaster or Warlock.  I opt to not go the spawnpoint route against Warlock, since Warlock basically counters all the supporting cards for the spawnpoint build order (everything is weak to fire), and instead go with a Battleforge build order built to counter Warlock and Forcemaster.  Iron Golems, supported with Charge, and a well timed Agony can be a real headache for either mage.  Landing a lucky Daze or Slam also wrecks more solo mages, though a good Warlock/Forcemaster book should absolutely have ways to deal with it (Akiro's Favor, Colossus Belt, Wand of Healing, etc).

I could go on, but suffice to say I think the Orc Warlord has plenty of tools to compete on par with the other mages.  The only thing I really have never understood about Warlord is the outpost placement restriction.  I don't know if it's a thematic gesture, but it just seems entirely unnecessary.  It's not a big deal, though, because defending more than one Garrison Post is tough against a smart opponent.     
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Alex

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2016, 03:12:28 AM »
One big disadvantage of the Orc warlord are the battle commands. Actually they should be an advantage for the orc warlord, but most warlord player I know use instead other more powerful command spells from their spell book.
The easiest fix of the warlord in my opinion will be to improve the battle commands.

The outpost  rule is also a topic and can be fixed by adding a general outpost trait for conjurations:

Outpost
Friendly soldier creatures need only a quick action to move between friendly outpost conjurations.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 07:10:31 AM by Alex »

Schwenkgott

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Re: Fix Bloodwave Warlord
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2016, 05:44:32 AM »
Who knows ... maybe there will be a way for the warlord in the future to use his commands without wasting one of his precious actions.
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