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Author Topic: Question about the design of PvS  (Read 1734 times)

Super Sorcerer

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Question about the design of PvS
« on: November 17, 2016, 04:47:56 PM »
ב"ה
I wondered about 2 things in PvS design that couldn't understand -

1) Ring of Tides is "Siren only". Neither "Gale Force Ring" nor "Lightning Ring" are "Wizard only". "Fireshaper Ring" isn't "Warlock only". "Dawnbreaker ring" isn't "Priestess only". So why did "Ring of Tides" get such a different design from all similar spells?
I mean, you have some design pattern for that type of equipment, but I just can't find a logical explanation why could every mage take the ring that buffs all other attack types, but the ring that buff hydro attack is "mage only".

2) Since fire is pretty useless undersea, I thought the siren would pay triple for fire spells. I mean, fire is sort of anti-thematic to what a siren is supposed to do. I also can't really see too many sirens using too much fire spells, since all of their "in school" attack spells remove burns. How come sirens don't pay triple for fire even though it fits thematically?

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 07:03:23 PM »
I understand what you are getting at with Ring of Tides but I do not think it is actually comparable with the other rings. The key difference is that Rings of tides boosts hydro zone attacks (Tsunami) while the range +1 trait of the other rings does not. I think the card designers and playtesters concluded this difference made Ring of Tides very strong and thus needed to be limited to Siren.

As for the Siren using fire spells, I was also surprised she does not pay triple. The one justification I can think of is hydro is poor against plants and the designers did not want to handicap her too much. I think that is a bit weak but it is the best idea I can think of.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 08:57:27 PM »
I imagine the fire attack spell still work underwater, but that they take the form of really hot oil and steam.


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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2016, 03:24:42 AM »
1) ring of tides is much more powerful than the other rings since it boosts the attack itself instead of giving melee+1 and ranged +1. Additionally it has the tidal effect which is a signature of her.

2) agreed.
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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 05:06:07 AM »
She doesn't pay triple for fire to stop people from saying, "the Wizard is the only mage with no opposed school"
Siren is so cool

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 05:19:48 AM »
She doesn't pay triple for fire to stop people from saying, "the Wizard is the only mage with no opposed school"
lol
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Super Sorcerer

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2016, 08:01:15 AM »
ב"ה
1) ring of tides is much more powerful than the other rings since it boosts the attack itself instead of giving melee+1 and ranged +1. Additionally it has the tidal effect which is a signature of her.

This is already balanced by working only when you have initiative.
I mean, if there was an alternative fireshaper ring that works like the ring of tides for fire spell (but explicitly can't be worn on the same time as the standard fireshaper ring), I can't imagine a warlock book that I will prefer to use the alternative one over the standard one (and all of my warlock books include at least one zone attack spell to counter swarms). The same goes for my holy mages books and the option of an alternative dawnbreaker ring.

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 10:18:54 AM »
Aquatic doesn't necessarily mean completely submerged underwater. Think of it like water polo... played with Fireballs. Non-aquatic creatures, like knights in armour, are hindered in a Shallow Sea, but aren't necessarily drowning. The aquatic creatures can swim (e.g. not hindered in water) but can still bring their upper bodies out of the water to throw harpoons, for instance. And surely the  Siren mage can cast fireballs or hurl rocks while swimming.

*edit* This also explains why flying creatures aren't generally affected by aquatic terrain; they're free to attack creatures (including aquatic creatures) that are near the surface and likely partially above water.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:25:35 AM by iNano78 »
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Zuberi

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 10:22:59 AM »
Both of these questions boil down to theme, which has a very simple answer. Because that's what Bryan wants. He's the designer of the world of Etheria, and so he creates the theme of the game. Theme isn't going to have a logical answer beyond "that's how it works in somebody's imagination." Not everyone's imagination is always going to line up on these issues though.

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Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 02:06:26 PM »
Aquatic doesn't necessarily mean completely submerged underwater. Think of it like water polo... played with Fireballs. Non-aquatic creatures, like knights in armour, are hindered in a Shallow Sea, but aren't necessarily drowning. The aquatic creatures can swim (e.g. not hindered in water) but can still bring their upper bodies out of the water to throw harpoons, for instance. And surely the  Siren mage can cast fireballs or hurl rocks while swimming.

*edit* This also explains why flying creatures aren't generally affected by aquatic terrain; they're free to attack creatures (including aquatic creatures) that are near the surface and likely partially above water.

Good answer. I totally didn't think of that and I totally should have. It is called *shallow* sea for a reason after all.

Both of these questions boil down to theme, which has a very simple answer. Because that's what Bryan wants. He's the designer of the world of Etheria, and so he creates the theme of the game. Theme isn't going to have a logical answer beyond "that's how it works in somebody's imagination." Not everyone's imagination is always going to line up on these issues though.

This answer is not a good answer. Part of what makes mage wars arena so fun is that it feels kinda like you're actually fighting a mage's duel in the arena (without the terror for your life of course). If you cannot visualize what the fight looks like at all, that would not be good. Especially since both official Mage Wars fiction and Mage Wars fanfiction depict arena duels. Also because "if this were an actual magical arena duel" is an amazing guideline for newer players who are learning the game.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 02:10:05 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 03:42:54 PM »
Both of these questions boil down to theme, which has a very simple answer. Because that's what Bryan wants. He's the designer of the world of Etheria, and so he creates the theme of the game. Theme isn't going to have a logical answer beyond "that's how it works in somebody's imagination." Not everyone's imagination is always going to line up on these issues though.

This answer is not a good answer. Part of what makes mage wars arena so fun is that it feels kinda like you're actually fighting a mage's duel in the arena (without the terror for your life of course). If you cannot visualize what the fight looks like at all, that would not be good. Especially since both official Mage Wars fiction and Mage Wars fanfiction depict arena duels. Also because "if this were an actual magical arena duel" is an amazing guideline for newer players who are learning the game.

I don't know where you are getting this from or what you're trying to say exactly. I never said you couldn't visualize the fight or that it didn't happen in an Arena. I said that the world is designed by Bryan Pope and therefore fits how he imagines that world to be. You ask 100 different people how something in a fantasy world SHOULD work, you may end up with 100 different answers. The reasons things work in Etheria the way they do is because that's how the designer visualizes them. Plain and simple. It's like arguing over why Superman can fly or has heat vision. Because that's the way he was designed.

That's not to say these arguments can't be fun or productive. I'm not trying to shut down discussion. We all have our own ideas and they can be a lot of fun to explore. But if someone is legitimately curious as to why thematic decisions were made, the actual answer is always going to be the same. Because that's how the designer imagines it. Why are there shark people? Because Bryan wanted them. Why does the Siren have a Mage only ring for hydro attacks? Because Bryan wanted her to have one. Thematic decisions aren't really something that have math or logical arguments behind them. They're just the story of Etheria, and Bryan writes that story. Neither of Super Sorcerer's questions have a mechanical or game play answer behind them. That's just the way the world of Etheria is.

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 03:59:31 PM »
Both of these questions boil down to theme, which has a very simple answer. Because that's what Bryan wants. He's the designer of the world of Etheria, and so he creates the theme of the game. Theme isn't going to have a logical answer beyond "that's how it works in somebody's imagination." Not everyone's imagination is always going to line up on these issues though.

This answer is not a good answer. Part of what makes mage wars arena so fun is that it feels kinda like you're actually fighting a mage's duel in the arena (without the terror for your life of course). If you cannot visualize what the fight looks like at all, that would not be good. Especially since both official Mage Wars fiction and Mage Wars fanfiction depict arena duels. Also because "if this were an actual magical arena duel" is an amazing guideline for newer players who are learning the game.

I don't know where you are getting this from or what you're trying to say exactly. I never said you couldn't visualize the fight or that it didn't happen in an Arena. I said that the world is designed by Bryan Pope and therefore fits how he imagines that world to be. You ask 100 different people how something in a fantasy world SHOULD work, you may end up with 100 different answers. The reasons things work in Etheria the way they do is because that's how the designer visualizes them. Plain and simple. It's like arguing over why Superman can fly or has heat vision. Because that's the way he was designed.

That's not to say these arguments can't be fun or productive. I'm not trying to shut down discussion. We all have our own ideas and they can be a lot of fun to explore. But if someone is legitimately curious as to why thematic decisions were made, the actual answer is always going to be the same. Because that's how the designer imagines it. Why are there shark people? Because Bryan wanted them. Why does the Siren have a Mage only ring for hydro attacks? Because Bryan wanted her to have one. Thematic decisions aren't really something that have math or logical arguments behind them. They're just the story of Etheria, and Bryan writes that story. Neither of Super Sorcerer's questions have a mechanical or game play answer behind them. That's just the way the world of Etheria is.

Because if the shallow sea wasn't shallow, then fire attacks made in those zones wouldn't look like fire and most living non-aquatic creatures would drown? Any explanation where shallow sea isn't shallow and yet still allowed fire to work normally and didn't drown any living aquatic creatures without even the slightest bit of explanation as to why would be inconceivable.
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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2016, 11:04:47 PM »
also consider that differences exist because what would be the point if everyone had access to the same thing only named differently. some differences are for theme. others exist just to keep the envoronment from being vanilla where everyone has access to the exact same items in their school. those differences also produce obstacles folks need to contemplate or overcome during the deck building process. how players confront those differences or obstacles are how we all end up with differnt builds for a given mage.

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2016, 11:22:33 AM »
ב"ה
also consider that differences exist because what would be the point if everyone had access to the same thing only named differently. some differences are for theme. others exist just to keep the envoronment from being vanilla where everyone has access to the exact same items in their school. those differences also produce obstacles folks need to contemplate or overcome during the deck building process. how players confront those differences or obstacles are how we all end up with differnt builds for a given mage.
I never said I had a problem with ring of tides giving better bonuses but only when you have initiative. That is perfectly fine, and this kind of diversity is definitely welcome.
My problem was that the ring that improve hydro attacks is "mage only", unlike the rings that improve other damage types. This isn't a diversity that create more strategies, but a specific limitation that prevent more strategies.

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Re: Question about the design of PvS
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 11:43:58 AM »
ב"ה
also consider that differences exist because what would be the point if everyone had access to the same thing only named differently. some differences are for theme. others exist just to keep the envoronment from being vanilla where everyone has access to the exact same items in their school. those differences also produce obstacles folks need to contemplate or overcome during the deck building process. how players confront those differences or obstacles are how we all end up with differnt builds for a given mage.
I never said I had a problem with ring of tides giving better bonuses but only when you have initiative. That is perfectly fine, and this kind of diversity is definitely welcome.
My problem was that the ring that improve hydro attacks is "mage only", unlike the rings that improve other damage types. This isn't a diversity that create more strategies, but a specific limitation that prevent more strategies.

It is still possible to release a more "normal" ring that buffs water spell melee and ranged attacks in the future. It just wasn't something done in this set!
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