July 20, 2019, 08:54:10 AM

Author Topic: Altar of Infernia  (Read 5617 times)

Kelanen

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 11:02:45 AM »
I think an interesting thing about Altar of Infernia is that it's effectively a "silver bullet" against several individual strategies/books. 

It completely nerfs:
- Ehren, Enduring Paladin
- Metatron / temples
- Valshalla, Lightning Angel
- Animal Kinships Beastmaster (at least for melee offense)
- several Solo mages that depend on Melee +X bonuses
- several Buddy mages that depend on Melee +X bonuses

Only the last two are relevant in my meta, but yes...

it also seems worth taking in most Dark books as insurance against several different opponent strategies - especially if any of those strategies would be your weakness otherwise. In this way, it's kind of analogous to Mordok's Obelisk / Suppression Orb, but for different types of match-ups. If you include both Mordok's Obelisk and Altar of Infernia in your book, you have a plan against many different books ranging from swarms (use Obelisk, which is probably better overall and works against zombies and sharks) to melee solo/buddy (use Altar of Infernia).

Agreed.

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 12:27:28 PM »
There's a 4x Animal Kinship Straywood Beastmaster in my meta who summons 1x level 1 of each snake, hound and bear cub (and sometimes a cat for Elusive) that hide in a corner somewhere while his Beastmaster beats you down with an 8-dice melee "punch to the face" (and 10-11 dice with Bear Strength and/or Wolf Fury) backed by 4 Armor and Tough -8.  He isn't nearly as scary in Infernia where he can only muster a 3-dice melee attack.

I was really excited to try a Metatron / Temples Priestess that slowly builds... but this Altar is a huge threat to that strategy, turning the Metatron into something like a Guardian Angel minus the defense that can't Intercept and has -3 health... aka terribly overpriced at 13 mana.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 12:35:56 PM by iNano78 »
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Puddnhead

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 12:28:22 PM »
There's a 4x Animal Kinship Straywood Beastmaster in my meta who summons and 1 of each snake, hound and bear cub that hide in a corner somewhere while his Beastmaster tries to beat you down with an 8-dice melee "punch to the face" (and 10-11 dice with Bear Strength and/or Wolf Fury) backed by 4 Armor and Tough -8.  He isn't nearly as scary in Infernia where he can only muster a 3-dice melee attack.

I know where his Force Hammer is headed.
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Kelanen

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 12:43:59 PM »
That's a hell of a lot of mana for that effect?  He could have 2 Grizzlys, a big teleport and change up and running quicker, and doing double the damage...

Whilst this will help (Debilitate already did this), I suspect it will only work as one of a good number of control methods already existing (Zone Attacks, Force Field, Reverse Attack, etc) and as Puddnhead says, Conjurations are fairly easy to kill - most books are ready to bump them off.

Playable options are always welcome though!

iNano78

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2016, 12:45:38 PM »
There's a 4x Animal Kinship Straywood Beastmaster in my meta who summons and 1 of each snake, hound and bear cub that hide in a corner somewhere while his Beastmaster tries to beat you down with an 8-dice melee "punch to the face" (and 10-11 dice with Bear Strength and/or Wolf Fury) backed by 4 Armor and Tough -8.  He isn't nearly as scary in Infernia where he can only muster a 3-dice melee attack.

I know where his Force Hammer is headed.

Fair enough.  There are ways to protect it, but Altar of Infernia gets pretty expensive if you have to wall it off in a corner, for instance.

But saying "just Force Hammer it" is analogous to MtG arguments about powerful creatures that end in "Dies to removal." Pretty near every conjuration is susceptible to getting Force Hammer'ed (or Akiro's Hammer'ed or Heart of Gravikor'ed or Earthquake'd or Brogan'ed or whatever). Just because Surging Wave exists doesn't mean Battle Forge is a bad card. There are ways to protect it if need be, and any card that demands an answer is a strong card by definition. Infernia will definitely mess with a lot of popular (and niche) strategies, demanding answers or else, which might give you time or bring about a big momentum shift while your opponent drops everything to deal with it.
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iNano78

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2016, 12:54:26 PM »
That's a hell of a lot of mana for that effect?  He could have 2 Grizzlys, a big teleport and change up and running quicker, and doing double the damage...

It is... but it's cool.

It's also Melee +4, Armor +4 and Tough -8 that can't be Dissolved/Dispelled/Crumbled/Dispersed/Purged. If you take out the Hound or Asp or Bear Cub, he just quick-casts another and keeps pounding you. Taking out the Kinships is slow and expensive also, so you basically have to outrace him to bigger/better threats and try to take out his critters on rounds that he didn't plan a replacement (although he pretty much always plans replacements, since his main action is to punch you anyway). The Tough makes it hard to get Corrodes to stick (aside from Rust), and when corrodes do stick, he just kills his own Asp, loses the Corrodes, and summons a replacement Asp, bring his Armor right back up to 4.  It's an expensive set-up (and sometimes he stops at 2 or 3 Kinships), but it isn't trivial to deal with, depending what Mage you're playing (e.g. Curses/Direct Damage get around the Armor, but he has lots of Dispels/Seeking Dispels).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 12:56:21 PM by iNano78 »
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Kelanen

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2016, 12:58:54 PM »
But saying "just Force Hammer it" is analogous to MtG arguments about powerful creatures that end in "Dies to removal."

Good decks either run more (and more efficient) creatures than the removal to swamp it, or creatures that are immune in some aspect. But yes, in isolation dies to removal is only part of the story.

In MW though the number of conjurations are you need to kill are more limited. Most books have Force Hammer/Hurl Boulder or a a way to kill it with a could of cheap creature attacks (Acid Ball, lots of piercing, etc). I think what Puddnhead is alluding to is that it's a threat that they will likely already have answers to.

That's not to say don't use, just don't rely on it...

Just because Surging Wave exists doesn't mean Battle Forge is a bad card.

It would if Surging Wave broke even or thereabouts. Battleforge is a good card because you are up actions and mana if they kill it, and lots of actions and mana if they don;t...


There are ways to protect it if need be, and any card that demands an answer is a strong card by definition. Infernia will definitely mess with a lot of popular (and niche) strategies, demanding answers or else, which might give you time or bring about a big momentum shift while your opponent drops everything to deal with it.

Yes, it may do. Here I'd be better with more Dispels mostly (I really wish it had got Bloodthirsty and Charge), but it definitely has uses.

I don't see my Arraxian Warlock (relies on +Melee far too much) or Adramelech Warlock (races incoming damage) using it, but I think it will go into one of my Necromancers, and be considered for the other. I don't have many books that would pay 4sbp for it though, but in some metas you may. Definitely an interesting card.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 01:12:41 PM by Kelanen »

Kelanen

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2016, 01:01:10 PM »
That's a hell of a lot of mana for that effect?  He could have 2 Grizzlys, a big teleport and change up and running quicker, and doing double the damage...

It is... but it's cool.

It's an expensive set-up (and sometimes he stops at 2 or 3 Kinships), but it isn't trivial to deal with, depending what Mage you're playing (e.g. Curses/Direct Damage get around the Armor, but he has lots of Dispels/Seeking Dispels).

I'm skeptical there aren't more efficient ways to kill someone, but I agree it's not trivial to dismantle once it's up and running. Killing him first is clearly the answer! ;)

Puddnhead

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2016, 01:03:53 PM »
There's a 4x Animal Kinship Straywood Beastmaster in my meta who summons and 1 of each snake, hound and bear cub that hide in a corner somewhere while his Beastmaster tries to beat you down with an 8-dice melee "punch to the face" (and 10-11 dice with Bear Strength and/or Wolf Fury) backed by 4 Armor and Tough -8.  He isn't nearly as scary in Infernia where he can only muster a 3-dice melee attack.

I know where his Force Hammer is headed.

Fair enough.  There are ways to protect it, but Altar of Infernia gets pretty expensive if you have to wall it off in a corner, for instance.

But saying "just Force Hammer it" is analogous to MtG arguments about powerful creatures that end in "Dies to removal." Pretty near every conjuration is susceptible to getting Force Hammer'ed (or Akiro's Hammer'ed or Heart of Gravikor'ed or Earthquake'd or Brogan'ed or whatever). Just because Surging Wave exists doesn't mean Battle Forge is a bad card. There are ways to protect it if need be, and any card that demands an answer is a strong card by definition. Infernia will definitely mess with a lot of popular (and niche) strategies, demanding answers or else, which might give you time or bring about a big momentum shift while your opponent drops everything to deal with it.

Sorry, didn't mean to be flippant.  The reality is that the Kinship Beastmaster is going to have to adapt to having this card wreck his plan, but he may not have to adapt much.  However, what this will do is make sure that he doesn't have that Force Hammer to hit your Grey Wraith or your Blood Demon that will mess up his plans in other ways.
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farkas1

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2016, 02:32:08 PM »
this wreaks certain builds.  The build with Ehren and the Blue Knight rush would be brutal just to pop the Altar.  However it does just slows things down a bit.

It really still hurts Straywood Beastmaster the most tho, especially swarm and/or animal kinship builds. 
No buff to his melee, animal kinship stops producing melee buffs with canines, bear strength, redclaw builds are slowed, and call of the wild along with his staff and pet ability is also going to suffer.    For straywood swarms especially playing swarms and call of the wild is so clutch, and this will ruin their day. 

The only redeeming thing about this card is that it is Epic, once taken out it is gone for good.

If you look at it... this one conjuration subtracts 3 attack dice from a pet and straywood just from the start if casted in the early rounds.  That hurts when some creatures are already very weak.  If played at an optimal time I reckon it could subtract 10 to 16+ dice easily.  That could wreak an attack, and swing a game.     

Again I stress I will love this card and hate this card, it just depends on which build I am playing and who I am playing against.
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Laddinfance

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2016, 03:08:43 PM »
Straywood is really going to want to pack the Mountain Ram now.

bigfatchef

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2016, 03:17:41 PM »
Straywood is really going to want to pack the Mountain Ram now.
I see mointain ram much morebin druids hands. He helps a lot pushing enemies to rooted plants or through walls.

The Altar favors strong creatures like grizzly who need no more dice.

Laddinfance

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2016, 03:43:15 PM »
My point was neither of the Mountain Ram's bonuses are stopped by the Altar, and it's naturally adept at breaking it.

iNano78

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2016, 03:57:42 PM »
Titanodon gets 7 dice against it. And once you've finished it off, you can roll another 7 dice at a creature on your way out of the zone.
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Laddinfance

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Re: Altar of Infernia
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2016, 04:06:45 PM »
That is totally true, but he's not a nature spell.