December 16, 2017, 05:06:01 AM

Author Topic: Animal Kinship  (Read 1701 times)

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Don't count me out!
    • View Profile
Animal Kinship
« on: February 02, 2017, 09:27:37 AM »
How good are animal kinship SBM's? I have seen a variety of builds. but just how good are they?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
All sides ready? Remember no killing, maiming, soul sucking, or any other funny buisness. This is just a training match. Let the Battle Comence!

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2017, 09:37:55 AM »
How good are animal kinship SBM's? I have seen a variety of builds. but just how good are they?

I don't think they're particularly "good" (e.g. I don't think I'd bring one to a tournament), but they're fun to play and can surprise the opponent because they're so different. e.g. Your opponent can't remove a Kinship Beastmaster's Armor and other buffs using Dissolve/Dispel, as with most melee Mages. Instead, he has to throw Unavoidable attacks at Darkfenne Asps or level 1 canines (or go after the conjurations themselves). And if you get Corroded, you let your Asp die and (quick)summon a new one. Oh, and don't underestimate the power of a Kinship bear cub. Getting tough -4 or -6 can make a mage nearly immune to d12 rolls.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 09:39:33 AM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Don't count me out!
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2017, 09:41:58 AM »
How good are animal kinship SBM's? I have seen a variety of builds. but just how good are they?

I don't think they're particularly "good" (e.g. I don't think I'd bring one to a tournament), but they're fun to play and can surprise the opponent because they're so different. e.g. Your opponent can't remove a Kinship Beastmaster's Armor and other buffs using Dissolve/Dispel, as with most melee Mages. Instead, he has to throw Unavoidable attacks at Darkfenne Asps or level 1 canines (or go after the conjurations themselves). And if you get Corroded, you let your Asp die and (quick)summon a new one. Oh, and don't underestimate the power of a Kinship bear cub. Getting tough -4 or -6 can make a mage nearly immune to d12 rolls.
What makes them not that "good"?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
All sides ready? Remember no killing, maiming, soul sucking, or any other funny buisness. This is just a training match. Let the Battle Comence!

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2249
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2017, 09:43:26 AM »
They're pretty legit. I've seen them win tournaments and do a lot of cool stuff.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Don't count me out!
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2017, 09:44:28 AM »
They're pretty legit. I've seen them win tournaments and do a lot of cool stuff.
Would you say they are "better" than your typical book? (do you run asps in your streywood) Also, how have updated your book with pvs and LG cards?
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
All sides ready? Remember no killing, maiming, soul sucking, or any other funny buisness. This is just a training match. Let the Battle Comence!

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2017, 09:53:51 AM »
The reason people are wary about it is because each Kinship costs 8 mana which is a hefty investment and you really want 3 (or 4) of them to get the best benefit since if you're only going to play 2 kinships you might as well just run Rhino Hide and Bear Strength.

On top of that 24+ mana for the kinships you still have to get the creatures out there. For a significantly smaller amount of mana and fewer of your own actions you could have Felella cast Rhino Hide and Bear Strength on you.

The main reason to do kinships is to be immune to dispel and dissolve.  I found when I tested this out that you also want to have some equipment and some enchantments to round out your usefulness as a combatant and then you're back to the same old problem of having the stuff you really need be hit with dissolve and dispel.

While it's certainly a fun experience and can hit really hard once your setup is done I think the main issue the archetype has is the huge setup cost in both mana and actions.  If you can overcome that hurdle efficiently it could be a really powerful book.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Don't count me out!
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2017, 09:57:22 AM »
The reason people are wary about it is because each Kinship costs 8 mana which is a hefty investment and you really want 3 (or 4) of them to get the best benefit since if you're only going to play 2 kinships you might as well just run Rhino Hide and Bear Strength.

On top of that 24+ mana for the kinships you still have to get the creatures out there. For a significantly smaller amount of mana and fewer of your own actions you could have Felella cast Rhino Hide and Bear Strength on you.

The main reason to do kinships is to be immune to dispel and dissolve.  I found when I tested this out that you also want to have some equipment and some enchantments to round out your usefulness as a combatant and then you're back to the same old problem of having the stuff you really need be hit with dissolve and dispel.

While it's certainly a fun experience and can hit really hard once your setup is done I think the main issue the archetype has is the huge setup cost in both mana and actions.  If you can overcome that hurdle efficiently it could be a really powerful book.
Well one thing i notice is if you want the lair or not. If you have one, it will be late game.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
All sides ready? Remember no killing, maiming, soul sucking, or any other funny buisness. This is just a training match. Let the Battle Comence!

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 10:35:20 AM »
The reason people are wary about it is because each Kinship costs 8 mana which is a hefty investment and you really want 3 (or 4) of them to get the best benefit since if you're only going to play 2 kinships you might as well just run Rhino Hide and Bear Strength.

On top of that 24+ mana for the kinships you still have to get the creatures out there. For a significantly smaller amount of mana and fewer of your own actions you could have Felella cast Rhino Hide and Bear Strength on you.

The main reason to do kinships is to be immune to dispel and dissolve.  I found when I tested this out that you also want to have some equipment and some enchantments to round out your usefulness as a combatant and then you're back to the same old problem of having the stuff you really need be hit with dissolve and dispel.

While it's certainly a fun experience and can hit really hard once your setup is done I think the main issue the archetype has is the huge setup cost in both mana and actions.  If you can overcome that hurdle efficiently it could be a really powerful book.

^^ this.

To summarize, 2-4x Kinships is a very slow, mana-intensive start for a melee beatdown strategy. And that's before you even summon the creatures needed to activate the Kinship abilities. You generally can't afford the mana to do a Lair and Kinships, but at least Straywood can quickcast the creatures. Oh, and it didn't really work before Asps because there was no level 1 Reptile before Academy; the bear cubs are nice to have, too.

Anyway, yeah, you're committing a lot of mana and actions to setting it up, and meanwhile your opponent is also gearing up or bringing out big threats of their own, so... it's a neat thing to try, and it can win, and it's different (and some opponents might not be able to deal with it efficiently), but I don't think it's a top-tier strategy.

Regarding additional buffs, because you'll use the Kinships for your primary buffs, you can specialize in just enchantments OR equipment, rather than both. I'd recommend enchantments because Nature. This at least makes all your opponent's Dissolves/Disarms/Explodes useless. But you could go the other way and pack a couple decent melee weapons, Chitin Armor, Packleader's Cowl, Regrowth Belt, etc and make all your opponent's Dispels, etc, useless.

All that said, I don't know much about the current meta, and if there's a lot of conjuration hate out there, or if you run into Altar of Infernia or Idol of Pestilence, then you're going to be in for a tough time.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 10:44:37 AM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 11:00:50 AM »
Code: [Select]
Animal Kinship         | Traditional Spells (mana in parentheses)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2x Animal Kinship (16) | 1x Enchanter's Ring (2)
1x Darkfenne Asp (4)   | 1x Rhino Hide (4)
1x Bitterwood Fox (5)  | 1x Bear Strength (4)
1x Pellian Lynx (4)    | 1x Mongoose Agility (4)
1x Steelclaw Cub (4)   | 1x Colossus Belt (5)*

* Actually, Colossus Belt is equivalent when you have only 1x Animal Kinship out, so that's not a fair comparison. A second Kinship + a bear is actually much better than a Colossus Belt. But you get the idea.

Anyway, you can see that if you get out 2x Animal Kinships, you're way behind in mana (and 1 action) compared to playing "traditional spells" that would do the same thing. You really need that 3rd-4th Kinship to come out ahead. Oh, and they're Zone Exclusive, so even placing them can become an issue (in rare cases). But hey, if you know your opponents rely heavily on counterspells and are guaranteed to be running 4x Dispel and 4x Dissolve in all their books and you want to teach them a lesson... then this might make them scratch their heads.  :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 11:10:06 AM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2017, 11:08:50 AM »

Regarding additional buffs, because you'll use the Kinships for your primary buffs, you can specialize in just enchantments OR equipment, rather than both. I'd recommend enchantments because Nature. This at least makes all your opponent's Dissolves/Disarms/Explodes useless. But you could go the other way and pack a couple decent melee weapons, Chitin Armor, Packleader's Cowl, Regrowth Belt, etc and make all your opponent's Dispels, etc, useless.


This is an interesting choice to make and I do agree it should be considered.  The enchantments are tempting because you can get them in your book for cheap.  However, my opinion is that equipment is going to fill more "holes" in your loadout so that you can deal better with different situations.  For instance a humble Mage Staff gives you Ethereal AND Reach which allows your buffed up Beastmaster (9 dice melee) hit something Incorporeal AND/OR flying with the buffs you've already generated for just 5 mana. Packleader's Cowl will allow your mid-tier animals (wolf/tegu) to guard you while also getting to do their damage.

Anyway, lots of things to consider.  Also, I'm of the opinion that you need a Lair to pull it off and that's even more expensive.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2017, 11:30:26 AM »
Regarding additional buffs, because you'll use the Kinships for your primary buffs, you can specialize in just enchantments OR equipment, rather than both. I'd recommend enchantments because Nature. This at least makes all your opponent's Dissolves/Disarms/Explodes useless. But you could go the other way and pack a couple decent melee weapons, Chitin Armor, Packleader's Cowl, Regrowth Belt, etc and make all your opponent's Dispels, etc, useless.

This is an interesting choice to make and I do agree it should be considered.  The enchantments are tempting because you can get them in your book for cheap.  However, my opinion is that equipment is going to fill more "holes" in your loadout so that you can deal better with different situations.  For instance a humble Mage Staff gives you Ethereal AND Reach which allows your buffed up Beastmaster (9 dice melee) hit something Incorporeal AND/OR flying with the buffs you've already generated for just 5 mana. Packleader's Cowl will allow your mid-tier animals (wolf/tegu) to guard you while also getting to do their damage.

Aside from the sbp cost, another big plus for Enchantments is that you don't need to pay for them till you need to use them. Another is that you can always bluff a Nullify or Block or whatever (or have them for real). And Ethereal isn't too hard (Divine Might), but Reach isn't going to work with Enchantments alone. You'll want another plan for dealing with Flyers (e.g. Tarok or attack spells or Maimed Wings or  Knockdown + Tanglevine or whatever).

Sticking with the theme of doing things in a non-conventional way, I tend to ignore the opponent's armor and would be more likely to run Critical Strike than Vorpal Blade; it can even stack with Wolf Fury and Lion Savagery for excessive amounts of Piercing. Bring a Spitting Raptor to the battle as a back-up plan.

Anyway, lots of things to consider.  Also, I'm of the opinion that you need a Lair to pull it off and that's even more expensive.

I've tried Kinship Johktari Beastmaster with Lair, but haven't won with it.  It's just too slow. Your first 4 rounds are basically:
1. Lair + FD enchant
2. Kinship + FD enchant
3. (Spawn an Asp) Kinship + FD enchant
4. (Spawn a Fox) Kinship + melee attack (assuming you've caught up to your opponent)
5. ... Realize you've already lost the match.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 11:32:54 AM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2249
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2017, 11:53:15 AM »
They're pretty legit. I've seen them win tournaments and do a lot of cool stuff.
Would you say they are "better" than your typical book? (do you run asps in your streywood) Also, how have updated your book with pvs and LG cards?

I have one asp in my Straywood book but I'm not currently running Kinship though I have in the past with this book.

I wouldn't say it's better but it's effective, depending on what I'm fighting then it is better. Against heavy damage types it can help a lot.

Yes I've added Chitin Armor, Hunting Spear, and the Rhino to my spellbook. I'm thinking I'll take the spear out for my favorite Mage Staff son but the armor and rhino are there to stay.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Puddnhead

  • Member of Arcane Duels; MageCast Co-host
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2017, 12:23:54 PM »
I wouldn't cast lair first turn.  I'd focus on getting into the thick while dropping the cheap creatures and a kinship every turn.  After you've got your buffs in place you can replace your little animals with larger ones after dropping a lair in the final quick cast on say, turn 6.  It's not there to save you mana it's there to allow you to hit things with your 9 dice attack.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Don't count me out!
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 12:30:28 PM »
They're pretty legit. I've seen them win tournaments and do a lot of cool stuff.
Would you say they are "better" than your typical book? (do you run asps in your streywood) Also, how have updated your book with pvs and LG cards?

I have one asp in my Straywood book but I'm not currently running Kinship though I have in the past with this book.

I wouldn't say it's better but it's effective, depending on what I'm fighting then it is better. Against heavy damage types it can help a lot.

Yes I've added Chitin Armor, Hunting Spear, and the Rhino to my spellbook. I'm thinking I'll take the spear out for my favorite Mage Staff son but the armor and rhino are there to stay.
I need to add the rhino to my beastmaster book! Not sure what to remove.
Do you find yourself usually casting fellela griz? She seems more "if i need it" in your book (from hoshi con that is)
I also assume you still have purge magic and/ or remove curse now.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
All sides ready? Remember no killing, maiming, soul sucking, or any other funny buisness. This is just a training match. Let the Battle Comence!

farkas1

  • Playtester
  • Sr. Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 337
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Animal Kinship
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2017, 02:35:45 PM »
I have gotten my straywood to use kinships.  I usually drop kinships mid to late game as my massive swarm is trying to punch mage, knocking down walls, or getting rid of the creatures I need to deal with.  Kinships don't usually come out right away.  I start popping them out when I am either wanting to engage or if the opponent is trying to engage my beastmaster.  I really have alot of fun and have won with it on a consistent basis.

My book does not have a whole lot of enchantments just a few defensive or small enchantments for my minor lvl creatures.  Equipment I carry only a few things like the wychwood ironvine, pants, BM discount ring, eagle claw boots, and a weapon. 

I feel my book is really versatile I will try and make room for a mage staff bc that would make me more effective against the force master and incorporeal things. 
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster