October 16, 2018, 07:18:06 AM

Author Topic: Loan from Voltari / Contract with Infernia / Mana Crystal Mine  (Read 2273 times)

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Loan from Voltari / Contract with Infernia / Mana Crystal Mine
« on: February 22, 2017, 03:56:37 PM »
Loan from Voltari
Enchantment, Reveal cost 0, Target = Mage, Type = Mana
Epic, Dissipate 1

When you reveal Loan from Voltari, gain 10 mana.
When the last Dissipate token is removed, pay 10 mana. If you do not, you lose the game.



Contract with Infernia
Enchantment, Reveal cost 0, Target = Mage, Type = Mana
Epic, Dissipate 1

When you reveal Contract with Infernia, gain 12 mana and your Mage loses 6 life.
When the last Dissipate token is removed, pay 6 mana. If you do not, you lose the game.



Not sure if the target needs to be "friendly Mage" to prevent casting it on your enemy. I think Voltari would benefit your opponent, but Infernia might be deadly.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:37:18 PM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Ravepig

  • Ambassador
  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 04:59:29 PM »
That is a killer idea. No pun intended.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
No tree, it is said, can grow to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell. Carl Jung

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 05:40:37 PM »
I am skeptical that it is possible to balance instant win effects in Mage Wars without something really weird and annoying. Like:

Banishing Tower
Holy lv8
Indestructible
Dissipate 1
Target an enemy Mage within 2 zones of Banishing Tower.
If you have 0 damage at the end of the round, add a dissipate token.

After ten rounds have passed, if Banishing Tower is still in play, The targeted Mage is teleported out of the arena.

This would be especially useful in multiplayer games. It allows you to get an enemy mage out of the way or prevent your Mage from being killed by plagued on a friendly Mage in your zone, and provides an incentive for faster play.

It will be unbalanced if such a card was autowin though. For that you'd probably want to increase the dissipates even more to like 20 or something. Otherwise people won't need to actually kill the Mage and will have a ton of extra spell points to spend on over the top tanking. Of course this kind of spell can lead to stalemates more easily than cards like magebane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2017, 05:12:46 AM »
Not really intended to be an instant win effect. More for those situations where you really need more mana now and are willing to sacrifice next round's channeling to get it. Could be used to afford a big finisher like Hurl Meteorite or Drain Life/Soul, or an expensive momentum swinging spell like Banish or Purge Magic. Also allows 1st-turn Adramelech Lord of Fire, etc - although you're probably better off double-moving and summoning a big creature on turn 2 and closer to the opposing Mage in that case.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Halewijn

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1786
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2017, 05:42:40 AM »
Looks like a cheatcode.  :P Mana management and being mana drained is a huge part of the game. Checking your opponents mana to decide what to do too.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
When in doubt kill it with fire? I never doubt and crush them right away.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2017, 06:31:25 AM »
Fun idea. But both seem too strong and atleast one of them would be auto include in almost every spellbook.

The first one is easier to asses. I dont consider it 'sacrifising next rounds channeling' - but more like have next rounds channeling now! (at the price of 2 mana which can be discounted + a quickaction).

I could see this be played in almost every book and revealed around round 3-5 when your summoning a creature which instead would be a much bigger creature.

The only response to this would be to 'lend from voltari / infernia' to counter.

The price of the loan is too cheap.

Beldin

  • The Craziest
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 727
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »

Loan from Infernia
Enchantment, Reveal cost 0, Target = Mage, Type = Mana
Epic, Dissipate 1

When you reveal Loan from Infernia, gain 12 mana and your Mage loses 6 life.
When the last Dissipate token is removed, pay 6 mana. If you do not, you lose the game.


This is broken. You will never lose the game.

If you lose the game then you have not managed your mana correctly.

Example:

Warlock, either.

T1: Double move (18), FD: Loan of Infernia (16).
T2: after upkeep Reveal LOI (37), Adremlech, LOF (13),

NB You can quick cast any enchantment face up except Death Link and have 6 mana left so you do not lose, at the point in the turn where you have ALOF in play.

Even at level 6 I will put 1 in every book. This is an interesting design space however, less mana and remove the lose the game text, *maybe* it would be workable. That's still a big if tho.


Channeling happens before upkeep.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:24:04 PM by Beldin »

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2017, 01:24:22 PM »
The "if you don't you lose the game" part is to add some risk (e.g. against Drain Power, Mana Siphon, Mordok's Obelisk, etc), and to ensure you pay it back (e.g. no need for a FAQ for "what happens if I don't - or can't pay it back?" or "What if I Dispel it so the Dissipate token never gets removed?").

But sure, they might not be priced right.

For Voltari, maybe gain 8 mana on reveal, pay back 10 mana upon removal of the Dissipate (plus the initial 2 as a FD enchantment)? Level 4 Arcane, EPIC spell.

For Infernia, maybe gain 8 mana, immediately pay 5 life, then pay another 5 life (not damage) when dissipate removed (or else lose the game). (?) Doesn't really need to be Epic because you're going to kill yourself if you play more than 1 or 2 of them. e.g. one of the reasons nobody plays Sardonyx, Blight of the Living. Level 4 Dark spell.

There would be some point where it's balanced. I'm just throwing the idea out there, not posting refined, balanced and playtested cards.

*edit* Might be broken because I forgot that your opponent could Dispel it, preventing the Dissipate from getting removed, and preventing you from paying for it thus causing you to lose the game. It might have to be "Indestructible" like Rolling Fog and in general might be better as a conjuration than an enchantment (e.g. no weird timing tricks regarding when you choose to reveal it; e.g. you get the mana when you cast it and you must pay for it during the next upkeep, without exceptions).

Part of the inspiration is a predominantly melee Forcemaster who needs a lot of mana early (for armoring up) but then has mana to spare late game. Or who suddenly finds herself overwhelmed by a horde of creatures but can't seem to save the mana needed for that Mass Sleep when it would be most useful.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:41:38 PM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2017, 02:26:49 PM »
How about another one:



Mana Crystal Mine
5 mana, Quick action cost, Conjuration, Target = Zone, Range 0-1, Level 1 Earth
3 Armor, 6 Life
Zone Exclusive, Dissipate 5

When the last Dissipate token is removed, the controlling Mage gains 10 mana.
Once per round, as a full action, a friendly Goblin or Dwarf creature in this zone may remove 1 Dissipate token from Mana Crystal Mine.



Cost is based on Mana Crystal/Flower, Harmonize, Moonglow Amulet, Wispwillow Amulet. You pay 5 now to gain a net +5 mana after waiting 5 turns, less any turns where one of your creatures uses an action (similar to Temple of Asyra or Altar of Skulls). Since it takes a while to earn a profit, it needs to be strong enough to last a little while... although a lucky Force Hammer could take it out. Compare to Mana Crystal or Mana Flower, whose net investment decreases each round, breaking even at 5 rounds and showing a profit beyond that. Gives the Warlord an in-school way to effectively increase channeling, but in his own way (e.g. lump sum payment rather than each round, and with more of an "all or nothing" risk associated with it).

Also, it might make Goblin Builder more useful... second career as a miner!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:40:11 PM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2017, 02:45:15 PM »
How about another one:



Mana Crystal Mine
5 mana, Quick action cost, Conjuration, Target = Zone, Range 0-1, Level 1 Earth
3 Armor, 6 Life
Zone Exclusive, Dissipate 5

When the last Dissipate token is removed, the controlling Mage gains 10 mana.
Once per round, as a full action, a friendly Goblin or Dwarf creature in this zone may remove 1 Dissipate token from Mana Crystal Mine.



Cost is based on Mana Crystal/Flower, Harmonize, Moonglow Amulet, Wispwillow Amulet. You pay 5 now to gain a net +5 mana after waiting 5 turns, less any turns where one of your creatures uses an action (similar to Temple of Asyra or Altar of Skulls). Since it takes a while to earn a profit, it needs to be strong enough to last a little while... although a lucky Force Hammer could take it out. Compare to Mana Crystal or Mana Flower, whose net investment decreases each round, breaking even at 5 rounds and showing a profit beyond that. Gives the Warlord an in-school way to effectively increase channeling, but in his own way (e.g. lump sum payment rather than each round, and with more of an "all or nothing" risk associated with it).

Also, it might make Goblin Builder more useful... second career as a miner!


sounds like a crystal / flower is better always.

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 02:52:53 PM »
sounds like a crystal / flower is better always.

How so?

For a Crystal/Flower to gain you net +5 mana, assuming no discount on casting it (e.g. Arcane Ring or Druid's Leaf Ring), it's going to take 10 rounds. After 5 rounds with a Crystal/Flower, all you've done is broken even. Here you get net +5 mana in (at most) 5 rounds. Even Wispwillow Amulet takes 6 rounds to get net +3 mana.

And that's if you don't "pray" to it with a cheap Goblin. If you have a Grunt or Builder sitting around, you could get your +5 mana a lot earlier. If you play this AND a Grunt or Builder, you basically paid for your Grunt/Builder for after 3 rounds. Well, it cost you a quick action to play the Mine, but that's it. Or if your Builder cast the Mine, then he paid for himself without costing you any additional actions at all (aside from the full action to cast him in the first place).

So one nice thing about this is it can still be beneficial to play mid-game, whereas you wouldn't generally consider playing a Crystal/Flower mid-game since you don't expect the match to last 10+ more rounds.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 03:04:47 PM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Contract with Infernia / Mana Crystal Mine
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 05:34:55 PM »
ahh yes your right.

Beldin

  • The Craziest
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 727
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 02:25:34 AM »
[quote author=iNano78 link=topic=17856.msg82321#msg82321
So one nice thing about this is it can still be beneficial to play mid-game, whereas you wouldn't generally consider playing a Crystal/Flower mid-game since you don't expect the match to last 10+ more rounds.
[/quote]

I disagree. Some of the best games I have played have lasted 3 hours and 20+ turns. However I would of had all my mana out long before this.

iNano78

  • Ambassador
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • Playing at the Royal Canadian Legion in Ottawa
    • View Profile
    • Ottawa/Gatineau Mage Wars (FB group)
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 06:27:45 AM »
Quote from: iNano78 link=topic=17856.msg82321#msg82321
So one nice thing about this is it can still be beneficial to play mid-game, whereas you wouldn't generally consider playing a Crystal/Flower mid-game since you don't expect the match to last 10+ more rounds.

I disagree. Some of the best games I have played have lasted 3 hours and 20+ turns. However I would of had all my mana out long before this.

FTFY.

In round 10, are you thinking "It's mid-game, and this is going to take at least another 10 rounds, so I'm going to play another Mana Crystal for late game benefit so I don't fall further behind."?

Compare to: "It's round 10 and I'm falling behind in mana. Hey, I've got a Goblin Builder with nothing left to do... I'll have him cast Mana Crystal Mine, and he'll "pray" to it twice, and then I'll gain a net of +5 mana in 3 rounds! For 5 mana in round 10, it will be like channeling 19(+) in round 13, which is enough for Hurl Meteorite + Hurl Rock, or Titanodon, or whatever makes the biggest impact in the near future.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:32:55 AM by iNano78 »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster

Gogolski

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 98
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Loan from Voltari / Infernia
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2017, 09:22:11 AM »
Mana Crystal Mine
5 mana, Quick action cost, Conjuration, Target = Zone, Range 0-1, Level 1 Earth
3 Armor, 6 Life
Zone Exclusive, Dissipate 5

When the last Dissipate token is removed, the controlling Mage gains 10 mana.
Once per round, as a full action, a friendly Goblin or Dwarf creature in this zone may remove 1 Dissipate token from Mana Crystal Mine.
Here's a Mana Mine variant:

Mana Mine.

6 mana
Quick action cost
Conjuration - Mana
Target = Zone
Range 0-1
Lv 1 Earth or Lv1 Arcane
1 Channeling
3 Armor
10 Life

Mana Mine comes into play with 6 mana.
As a full action, a Goblin or Dwarf may mine 2 mana from the mine.
When there is no more mana left on the Mana Mine, destroy Mana Mine.

* Note that a non-friendly dwarf or goblin may do this as well