October 20, 2017, 06:21:33 PM

Author Topic: Titanodon  (Read 1365 times)

Zuberi

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 06:33:56 AM »
Halewjin answered this and iNano78 summarized it, so it doesn't need an update. Therefore I'm going to assume you're asking for an update on my comment regarding the fact AW was scrutinizing how these mechanics work. In that regards, there is no update or change at this time. Any update on the matter will be in a Supplement update, not here.

Santar

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2017, 01:05:04 PM »
Agony works with Trample attack? And week?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 01:10:14 PM by Santar »

Kharhaz

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2017, 01:13:10 PM »
Agony works with Trample attack? And week?

No to agony.

As per the trample trait description, "It is neither a ranged or melee attack and is not effected by things that which effect melee or ranged attacks"

Weak is interesting since the condition doesn't specifically say melee or ranged reduction like agony. However, I would lean on the side of "cannot be effected" overrides in this case, but I have been wrong once, maybe twice, before..
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 01:15:11 PM by Kharhaz »

Santar

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2017, 03:04:56 PM »
Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.

Zuberi

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2017, 04:42:02 PM »
Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.

Reread the Trample rules in Lost Grimoire. It specifically says it is not a melee attack, nor a ranged attack. It is it's own unique thing. I agree that the symbolism is confusing, and I don't know why they put that on the cards, but it definitely is not affected by Agony.

It is however affected by Weak. For exactly the reason that Kharhaz made mention of. Weak doesn't limit itself to just ranged and melee attack. It affects all non-spell attacks, which would include Trample.

Santar

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2017, 11:22:09 PM »
I think Trample is an attack action, like quick or full action attacks. We have attack action icon, then type of attack and dices. In this case everything is clear: Trample is sort of attack action, which you can do when leaving zone. All Trample attacks in game now melee attacks, so you can't Tramble Flying and you can dodge this attack with Buckler. On Trample attacks doesn't affects bonuses like Melee +X, Bloodfirsty and ets.

Beldin

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2017, 03:22:43 AM »
I think Trample is an attack action, like quick or full action attacks. We have attack action icon, then type of attack and dices. In this case everything is clear: Trample is sort of attack action, which you can do when leaving zone. All Trample attacks in game now melee attacks, so you can't Tramble Flying and you can dodge this attack with Buckler. On Trample attacks doesn't affects bonuses like Melee +X, Bloodfirsty and ets.

However it is not. Please refer to the following post:

Titanodon has sword with trample attack. It means that it is melee attack. So, Agony can work. I think it works like Aegis.

Reread the Trample rules in Lost Grimoire. It specifically says it is not a melee attack, nor a ranged attack. It is it's own unique thing. I agree that the symbolism is confusing, and I don't know why they put that on the cards, but it definitely is not affected by Agony.

It is however affected by Weak. For exactly the reason that Kharhaz made mention of. Weak doesn't limit itself to just ranged and melee attack. It affects all non-spell attacks, which would include Trample.
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jacksmack

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 03:44:19 AM »
does it cover flying? :)

Zuberi

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 02:01:55 PM »

Zuberi

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2017, 02:08:28 PM »
Quote from: Lost Grimoire Rules
Trample attacks can only target non-Flying creatures, and cannot target conjurations.

It doesn't go into more detail because otherwise normal rules apply, but in case anyone was wondering: a flying creature cannot attack a non-flying creature without first losing the flying trait for the attack action. So if you have a creature with both flying and trampling, it can still use the trample trait but only against non-flying targets and your creature will lose the flying trait for the duration of the attack action.

Since Trample happens during the Leave Zone Effects step of the move, this means that you will not have flying during THAT step (technically just during the attack, if it ever matters with regards to other Leave Zone Effects). You will regain flying when you get to the Walls step, and can continue over the wall free as sin. This is because you can't gain/lose flying during an attack action, but you can during other actions.

Edit: In double checking myself, which I should have done before posting, I realize that the flying rules regarding having to lose flying to make an attack only technically apply to a Melee attack. Which Trample isn't. So the rules don't actually explicitly cover how to handle it. I assure you, however, that my explanation is how it is intended to work.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 02:13:22 PM by Zuberi »

Zuberi

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2017, 02:32:07 PM »
I'm anticipating the flying thing opening a can of worms. Therefore the reason I say that it works like a melee attack in regards to losing the flying trait, and not in regards to other things like Agony, is because I've specifically talked to people behind the scenes regarding it. But if you want to play strictly by the RAW then a creature with both Trample and Flying should be able to make the Trample attack without losing the Flying trait at all. Meaning it would be immune to Counterstrikes (but not Damage Barriers).

It should be obvious that this is overpowered and unintended.

Kaarin

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2017, 04:04:11 PM »
Isn't trample already immune to counterstrikes and damage barriers? It's not a melee attack.
(It would be nice if LG's rules were online)
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Kharhaz

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2017, 04:15:50 PM »
Trample

Trample is a new type of attack which can be made while a creature  is moving!

Once per round, when a creature takes a move action, it may trample attack as a free action against a target creature in its zone. The attack can only be used when it takes a move action to leave a zone. The attack occurs during the "leaving zone effects step" of the move action.

It may only use a trample attack to attack a creature in the zone it is leaving, not the zone it is entering. Trample attacks have a special icon which looks like an elephant's foot.

After moving, the creature is still able to take a quick action as normal, which may enable it to make another attack.

Trample attacks can only target non-Flying creatures, and cannot target conjurations. Trample attacks cannot occur when a creature is Pushed or Teleported. Additionally, a trample attack is neither a melee or ranged attack, and thus is not affected by things which effect melee or ranged attacks(such as the melee +X trait). However, it does behave like a melee attack in that it must respect guards. The attack has a counterstrike step and a damage barrier step, in which the attacker may receive an attack from the defender or the damage barrier.



That is how it is in the rules word for word
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 04:17:21 PM by Kharhaz »

Kaarin

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2017, 05:31:08 PM »
Thanks.
I would say that by RAW trample isn't affected by counterstrike trait. By definition counterstrike trait works against melee attacks only and it doesn't matter if it comes from guarding or is innate.
Sure, there's "The attack has a counterstrike step and a damage barrier step, in which the attacker may receive an attack from the defender or the damage barrier. " but this doesn't grant the defender an ability to counterstrike.  It allows other abilities that trigger in the counterstrike step to work.
IMO it should be "However, it does behave like a melee attack in respect to guarding, counterstrikes and damage barriers." or something similar.
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Beldin

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Re: Titanodon
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2017, 07:10:57 PM »
Personally this should not be able to be effected by Counterstrikes and the like due to timing.

This attack only occurs upon a card leaving a zone and once it has made the attack it is no longer in the zone there it made the attack. Therefore any damage causing elements that generate from opposing effects cannot target this card as it is no longer at the range of 0-0 that these effects happen under, hence it cannot be effected by a counterstrike, etc. However it should be treated as an attack in that zone when interfacing with other rules elements, such as guards.

On the note of flying trample then it should lose the flying trait to make a trample attack against creatures that do not have the flying trait. This then covers the thematic of a swooping attack. Against flying creatures it does not lose the flying trait as the same combat happens the 3D aerial dynamic battlefield (think dogfights of WW2).
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