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Author Topic: Steep Hill + wall and LoS  (Read 4650 times)

Santar

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Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« on: March 12, 2017, 12:59:47 PM »
Hi,
The situation is as follows: there is a mage adjacent to a zone with a Steep Hill. He wants to cast a Wall on one of the borders of Steep Hill zone. What are his options? Will the Steep Hill prevent him from casting a wall on the opposite border, for example?


« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:11:54 PM by Santar »

zot

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2017, 01:11:32 PM »
this is a good question. i believe that since los did not pass through two sides, you can see all three walls. though it seems like the wall directly across should be blocked. since you can see into each zone at an angle above and below the hill you should be able to see those walls via those zones.

Hagen

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2017, 01:24:22 PM »
Strictly speaking, it depends upon how do we interpret "passes through" in the Steep Hill text.
Literal interpretation ("touches" <> "passes through") implies that all three borders are visible. However an official opinion will be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:08:05 PM by Hagen »

drmambo23

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2017, 01:33:16 PM »
I believe you cannot place a wall directly across from the hill. only above it and below it.  But you should be able to place one above or below and extend it to the far side across from your mage...i think
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jacksmack

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2017, 01:48:56 PM »
The paladin can cast all 3 walls from his current position.

Santar

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 02:19:18 PM »

iNano78

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 02:52:41 PM »
The key concept is that the Paladin has LoS to the zone that Steep Hill is attached to. Thus, he can build walls on any side of that zone.
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drmambo23

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 03:17:32 PM »
The key concept is that the Paladin has LoS to the zone that Steep Hill is attached to. Thus, he can build walls on any side of that zone.
Ahh. Makes sekse! Thanks for clarifying.
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iNano78

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 04:54:21 PM »
Similarly, if the Paladin wanted to target any of these walls with a ranged attack that includes Range 1, he is able to, because he has LoS to the zone with the Steep Hill. 

Interestingly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if his ranged attack was, say, Range 2-3 (or if we swap the Paladin for an Akiro's Hammer), he would still be able to target the wall across from the Hill because, even though the Hill blocks LoS to the zone at Range 2, the rules for targeting walls say that as long as you have Range to a zone on either side of the wall, and as long as you have LoS to the Wall itself, you can target the wall (even if you don't have LoS to the zone that you have Range to). This is why, for example, a Skeleton Archer can use his Ranged attack against a Wall on the border of his zone (e.g. he has LoS to the Wall, and one of the zones that the wall borders is at Range 1, even though the Archer can't see that zone).
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Hagen

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 07:29:19 PM »
The key concept is that the Paladin has LoS to the zone that Steep Hill is attached to. Thus, he can build walls on any side of that zone.
Exactly what I said when discussing the problem with TS in a local chat. However it seems things have changed.
Rulebook (recent version available for download): "At  least one of the two zones adjacent to the target zone border must be in range, and the zone border in LoS when you cast the wall spell"
Old rulebook I've downloaded previously: "At  least one of the two zones adjacent to the wall must be in range and LoS when you cast the wall spell"

So strictly speaking, building a wall requires a LoS to the zone border, not the zone.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 07:41:32 PM by Hagen »

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 12:20:01 AM »
an adjacent zone must be in LOS to target the wall, the zone with the steep hill is, so you can target the three walls (even if it is not realistic).

about range, targetting a wall is range 0 and 1 from an adjacent zone.
so it should be range 1-2 in this situation, and Akiro's hammer should be able to target the three walls.

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 01:35:30 AM »
When targeting a zone border, one of the two zones adjacent to the border must be within range of the spell, and the border itself needs to be in Line of Sight. So, it doesn't matter that you have Line of Sight to the zone containing the Steep Hill, what matters is if you have Line of Sight to the zone border. Line of Sight and Range are checked separately. Hagen is completely right on this.

So, Steep Hill blocks Line of Sight if it passes through two "sides" of the zone, meaning the question is whether or not it passes through a second "side" of the zone before reaching the Zone Border. Now, the "side" of a zone isn't a game term, so we just have to trust common English a bit with this, but I think it's fairly clear that the "side" of the zone is synonymous with Zone Border. They are in actuality the same thing.

This would mean that when you trace Line of Sight, you are getting to and touching the second side of the zone, BUT you are not passing through it. So you would be able to target any of the zone borders adjacent to the Steep Hill. Which are, as iNano and exid pointed out, vulnerable to range 2 attacks in the example setup, like those from Akiro's Hammer, because again Range and Line of Sight are checked separately.

Edit: Just to remind people of the rules, for those saying that two of the borders would be visible but the far one wouldn't be, Line of Sight is traced from the center of the zone to the center of the zone border. So all three questioned borders are identical in the presented problem, with Line of Sight having to first pass through one border and then touch the middle of the border in question. Whatever answer applies to one, applies to all three. You can't skew the origin or the destination to try and circumvent obstacles.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 01:44:55 AM by Zuberi »

exid

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2017, 01:03:49 PM »
argl!
I allways forget that LOS is to the wall...

but then it would seem logical that the steep hill cuts LOS to the three walls.

Arkdeniz

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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2017, 07:49:32 AM »
When targeting a zone border, one of the two zones adjacent to the border must be within range of the spell, and the border itself needs to be in Line of Sight. So, it doesn't matter that you have Line of Sight to the zone containing the Steep Hill, what matters is if you have Line of Sight to the zone border. Line of Sight and Range are checked separately. Hagen is completely right on this.

So, Steep Hill blocks Line of Sight if it passes through two "sides" of the zone, meaning the question is whether or not it passes through a second "side" of the zone before reaching the Zone Border. Now, the "side" of a zone isn't a game term, so we just have to trust common English a bit with this, but I think it's fairly clear that the "side" of the zone is synonymous with Zone Border. They are in actuality the same thing.

This would mean that when you trace Line of Sight, you are getting to and touching the second side of the zone, BUT you are not passing through it. So you would be able to target any of the zone borders adjacent to the Steep Hill. Which are, as iNano and exid pointed out, vulnerable to range 2 attacks in the example setup, like those from Akiro's Hammer, because again Range and Line of Sight are checked separately.

Edit: Just to remind people of the rules, for those saying that two of the borders would be visible but the far one wouldn't be, Line of Sight is traced from the center of the zone to the center of the zone border. So all three questioned borders are identical in the presented problem, with Line of Sight having to first pass through one border and then touch the middle of the border in question. Whatever answer applies to one, applies to all three. You can't skew the origin or the destination to try and circumvent obstacles.

Apologies for raising this thread from the dead, but this situation came up in a game tonight, and we fell to arguing.

The result we came up with opposes Zuberi's reasoning here.

The problem is that the rules for LoS as written have not taken into account any possibility that something other than a wall can block LoS:

"Some walls block LoS. You cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through a wall that blocks LoS. . . Draw an imaginary straight line from the centre of the attacker's or caster's zone to the centre of the target's zone. LoS is blocked if the line crosses through a zone border that has a wall on it with the blocks LoS trait. . . When drawing LoS to a wall, draw it to the centre of the zone border."

That's what we've got to go on.

The Steep Hill is a different beast. It sits within the zone, not on a zone border the way a wall does. It says:

"LoS that passes through two sides of this zone is blocked."

The language on the Steep Hill card is loose and imprecise. However, it is clear that because Steep Hill sits within the zone and not on its border it does something different to a wall and the rules as written on LoS (which talk strictly about conjurations on zone borders) cannot completely apply. 

Because "LoS that passes through two sides of this zone is blocked" the Steep Hill needs to be envisaged as a raised platform with straight up and down sides. Since LoS goes from centre to centre there isn't any virtual 'gentle slope' you can peek over to look into a diagonally adjacent zone.

Simply put, if you are standing in a zone adjacent to a Steep Hill you do not have LoS to any zone border other than the one directly in front of you, because there is a large mass of earth sitting in the middle of the zone.

It has been argued that walls, sitting on a zone border, do not "cross" a border, but clearly the rules on range show that walls belong to, and affect, both bordering zones and thus casting a wall must necessitate "passing" the zone border in some way. (You might also say that since you can't have two walls back-to-back against each on either side of a zone border a wall must have a foot in both camps, as it were.)

If you think of it like that, then you need to cross two zone borders to cast a wall along the far or side zone borders of an adjacent zone (even if only by a little bit).

I am usually all in favour of taking rules-as-written, but in this case I do not think the rule has been written. LoS as it refers to seeing through walls is certainly there and is very clear, but there is nothing other than a fairly vague one line for a LoS blocker that sits within a zone. Rules-as-intended need to have the casting vote.

tl/dr: You can't build a wall on the other side of a Steep Hill, because you can't see the zone border as there is a Steep Hill in the way.   
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Re: Steep Hill + wall and LoS
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2017, 09:24:33 AM »
RAW works as Zuberi previously explained. You can imagine that the Zone Borders rise WITH the effect of the Steep Hill so that all 3 Zone Borders are still visible from the Paladin's position. i.e. The difference in tracing LOS between a Wall and a Steep Hill is that a Wall along a single Zone Border blocks LOS, while it takes crossing two Zone Borders of a Steep Hill to block LOS.

It seems several interpretations posted here consider the Steep Hill to act as a Wall in the middle of the Zone, which is not supported by the RAW.
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