August 08, 2020, 09:55:01 PM

Author Topic: I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?  (Read 7729 times)

Borg

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If there is a timing issue then the player with initiative decides, this means if a creature has 2 effects controlled by different players then the player with initiative decides what happens first.
Incorrect, imo.
A creature that regenerates ( owning player effect ) and that will take damage from an Idol ( opposing player effect ) can choose the order it which it resolves both effects. Normally Regenerate first, then take 1 damage.
The owner of the idol has no say in this, no matter who has initiative.

in the example of ghoul rot or death link vs regenerate, since the effects are controlled by different players, the player with initiative decides in what order they take place.
Again incorrect, imo.

A creature that regenerates ( owning player effect ) and that will take damage from a Ghoul Rot ( opposing player effect ) is the same example as above.

Death Link and Regenerate is different.
In the examples above we're always talking about two effects on 1 creature.

In case of Death Link and Regenerate we're essentially talking about 1 effect on two creatures.
The controller of Death Link can heal and deal damage and the controller of the Regenerator can regenerate.
In this case it's the player with initiative who can resolve his effect first.
So, if the player that controls the Death Link has initiative it is possible to kill the creature before it gets a chance to regenerate.



« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 03:49:09 PM by Borg »
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jacksmack

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In this case it's the player with initiative who can resolve his effect first.

or last if he wish to :) (when the creature has full health.)

Santar

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"You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase". So, always. And in Official Rules Supplement no one example which can break this rule.

But we have example for the second part: "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."


In this case order extremely important, because if my holy creatures in wirlpool trap and it has the last dissipate token and it's my ini, I can say to remove the token first and no dmg and affect on my creatures.

ExcaliburTK

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If there is a timing issue then the player with initiative decides, this means if a creature has 2 effects controlled by different players then the player with initiative decides what happens first.
Incorrect, imo.
A creature that regenerates ( owning player effect ) and that will take damage from an Idol ( opposing player effect ) can choose the order it which it resolves both effects. Normally Regenerate first, then take 1 damage.
The owner of the idol has no say in this, no matter who has initiative.

in the example of ghoul rot or death link vs regenerate, since the effects are controlled by different players, the player with initiative decides in what order they take place.
Again incorrect, imo.

A creature that regenerates ( owning player effect ) and that will take damage from a Ghoul Rot ( opposing player effect ) is the same example as above.

Death Link and Regenerate is different.
In the examples above we're always talking about two effects on 1 creature.

In case of Death Link and Regenerate we're essentially talking about 1 effect on two creatures.
The controller of Death Link can heal and deal damage and the controller of the Regenerator can regenerate.
In this case it's the player with initiative who can resolve his effect first.
So, if the player that controls the Death Link has initiative it is possible to kill the creature before it gets a chance to regenerate.

i did a bad job of explaining it but i agree with you, and in my last part i meant to only say deathlink.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:05:26 PM by ExcaliburTK »

Puddnhead

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"You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase". So, always. And in Official Rules Supplement no one example which can break this rule.

But we have example for the second part: "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."


In this case order extremely important, because if my holy creatures in wirlpool trap and it has the last dissipate token and it's my ini, I can say to remove the token first and no dmg and affect on my creatures.

This statement in the supplement seems contradictory to me.
1) Whirlpool follows normal rules
2) controller of the creature decides when those creatures are affected
3) controller of whirlpool decides when to remove the dissipate token

then it states
4) player with Initiative decides when dissipate is removed...seriously?

As the controller of whirlpool, I decide to do the damage effect first and then remove the dissipate...just because you arbitrarily have initiative means that I don't control my OWN effects anymore?  Contradiction.

You are certainly free as per the normal rules to apply the damage after a healing effect, but if you've got 2 life left and no healing/regen.  Sorry, you take the damage and die.  I control whirlpool and you've had 3 rounds to get out of it, sonny.
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Hagen

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"You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase". So, always. And in Official Rules Supplement no one example which can break this rule.
But we have example for the second part: "In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order."
Essentially that's the problem: these two phrases are somewhat contradictionary. Always except rare cases? What are these rare cases, how should one identify these? Why, for example, Death Link vs Regeneration is considered to be a timing issue (if I got it right), and Ghoul Rot vs Reneneration is not?

I'd say we have a good candidate for a new section in the next Official Rules&Codex Supplement.

Santar

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Not today. It's the rules. If I have ivi and your whirlpool has 1 token, so I can destroy your conjuration. And only then activate my creater's upkeep effects. Oh, no whirlpool- no effect, no dmg.

But with Pillars it will work this way: my Pillar have last token. I have ini and remove token, then attack your mage (attack is not the effect) and can burn you with this attack. And only then I let you activate your mage with new burn, which will burn you this upkeep thase. It will not work the same way if ini is yours.

But return to the mane question:  I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?

Borg

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But return to the mane question:  I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?
Hasn't that been answered several times already ?
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Puddnhead

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But return to the mane question:  I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?
Hasn't that been answered several times already ?

Yes it has and the rules agree that you are the creature that you control and you can choose to apply the Regenerate before the Ghoul Rot.  Death Link is special as it's a doubly contingent card.

To the other points, I think the Rules Supplement is wrong on Dissipate, but that opinion needs to be dealt with by the writers and designers.  As it stands right now, Whirlpool will die on off initiative before doing its damage.
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Hagen

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In case of Death Link and Regenerate we're essentially talking about 1 effect on two creatures.
Strictly speaking, Ghoul Rot is not fundamentally different from Death Link: both are Enchantments, both have a single target. Why should they be treated differently when determining a resolution order? Are there any formal criteria? Intuitive feeling is such a thin ice.

ExcaliburTK

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But return to the mane question:  I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?
yes

But with Pillars it will work this way: my Pillar have last token. I have ini and remove token, then attack your mage (attack is not the effect) and can burn you with this attack. And only then I let you activate your mage with new burn, which will burn you this upkeep phase. It will not work the same way if ini is yours. 

the way pillar works is you are the controller so you decide what happens first between the dissipate and attack so you will always get your last attack, even on the other players initiative. (whirlpool is the only one the supplement makes an exception for) and if a burn happens they have to resolve it because conditions gained during upkeep are resolved even if they already resolved burns because conditions are technically resolved individually.   

In case of Death Link and Regenerate we're essentially talking about 1 effect on two creatures.
Strictly speaking, Ghoul Rot is not fundamentally different from Death Link: both are Enchantments, both have a single target. Why should they be treated differently when determining a resolution order? Are there any formal criteria? Intuitive feeling is such a thin ice.

because death link effects both your mage and the opposing creature.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:55:48 PM by ExcaliburTK »

Puddnhead

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In case of Death Link and Regenerate we're essentially talking about 1 effect on two creatures.
Strictly speaking, Ghoul Rot is not fundamentally different from Death Link: both are Enchantments, both have a single target. Why should they be treated differently when determining a resolution order? Are there any formal criteria? Intuitive feeling is such a thin ice.

It's not intuition.  It's reading the card.  An important distinction here is that it's not CARDS that get resolved it's EFFECTS that get resolved in an order.

Ghoul Rot's effect applies to ONE creature that creature's controller decides what order the effects are resolved.

Death Link has TWO effects that are an creatures with TWO different controllers.  Therefore the order of resolution is in the hands of two different players.  Death Link states that your mage may heal up to 2 damage...then IF you do so, the creature that Death Link is attached to MUST take 2 damage.

After thinking about this, I see no reason why the creature's controller cannot choose to apply the damage after regenerating.  The effects are tied together and IF one, THEN the other, but it's still an effect on the creature that someone else controls.  I don't think Death Link should be able to kill a regenerating creature.
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iNano78

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I've read through most of this discussion, and I think the confusion comes from understanding (a) who controls a creature and (b) who controls an effect that affects a creature they don't control:

  • A creature Alice controls has the Regenerate trait (for whatever reason). Who determines when Alice's creature Regenerates? (Alice, because Alice controls the creature)
  • A creature Alice controls has Ghoul Rot attached that Bob controls. Who determines when Alice's creature takes damage? (Alice, because Alice controls the creature)
  • A creature Alice controls has Bob's Deathlink attached to it. Who determines when the effects of Deathlink occur? (Bob, because Bob controls the Mage that Deathlink heals)
  • A creature (Mage) Alice controls has a Waterfall Cloak and a Burn token. Who determines when these effects resolve? (Alice, since she controls the Mage. As an aside, the Burn token doesn't remember where it came from; e.g. it belongs to the creature now; no one controls it)
  • An object that Alice controls has Dissipate tokens. Who determines when a Dissipate token gets removed? (Alice, since she controls the object. Note that this might cause things to happen, like an attack from Pillar of Righteous Flame. Also note that the damage from Whirlpool does not occur due to a Dissipate token being removed.)

When the order of effects could be in dispute because both players lay claim to them (e.g. a creature that has Regenerate AND has an enemy Deathlink attached; or the last Dissipate has to come off Bob's Whirlpool and Alice's creature has to take damage from the same Whirlpool), the player with initiative decides the order.

In the Regenerate 2 + Ghoul Rot example, Alice controls the creature being affected by both effects so she can choose to resolve them in either order. Example 1: Her creature has no damage, so she chooses to have Ghoul Rot happen first, then Regenerate 2 heals the damage. Example 2: Her creature has 1 point of life remaining, so she chooses to have Regenerate 2 heal some damage first, then Ghoul Rot puts the damage right back.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 05:09:45 PM by iNano78 »
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jacksmack

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Alice!?!?! who the F*** is Alice?

ExcaliburTK

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iNano78: that was a perfect explanation, much better than I could ever give  :)