August 08, 2020, 09:00:39 PM

Author Topic: I have 1 HP enemy's Ghoul Rot and my regenerate 2. Enemy's ini, will I survive?  (Read 7722 times)

Hagen

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Initiative has no real effect on resolving this.
Initiative only indicates who resolves effects on his objects first.
Lets check if I got that right.
Mage A has a creature (2HP, just for a change) under Mordok's Obelisk.
Mage B has a Death Link with a creature.

Mage B has an Initiative. He decides that he will resolve *himself* first, and heals 2HP, placing 2 damage on a Deathlinked creature.
Now Mage A resolves two effects on his creature: 2 direct damage and the loss of a creature (because he refuses to pay upkeep). What are his options? Common sense hints that he cannot destroy his creature first, somehow "cancelling" his opponent's healing. It it correct?

If Mage A has the Initiative, he starts with destroying his creature. Mage B cannot resolve Death Link... too bad for him.

Is it correct?


iNano78

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Initiative has no real effect on resolving this.
Initiative only indicates who resolves effects on his objects first.
Lets check if I got that right.
Mage A has a creature (2HP, just for a change) under Mordok's Obelisk.
Mage B has a Death Link with a creature.

Mage B has an Initiative. He decides that he will resolve *himself* first, and heals 2HP, placing 2 damage on a Deathlinked creature.
Now Mage A resolves two effects on his creature: 2 direct damage and the loss of a creature (because he refuses to pay upkeep). What are his options? Common sense hints that he cannot destroy his creature first, somehow "cancelling" his opponent's healing. It it correct?

If Mage A has the Initiative, he starts with destroying his creature. Mage B cannot resolve Death Link... too bad for him.

Is it correct?

Mordok's Obelisk grants all non-Mage creature the "Upkeep +1" trait. This is now a trait of every non-Mage creature.

Mage B is the only Mage that will get to resolve Deathlink. If Mage A has initiative, Mage A only gets to choose when Deathlink (and all of Deathlink at once) gets to resolve. Similarly, if Mage B has initiative, Mage B gets to choose when Deathlink resolves.

If Mage B has initiative, then Mage B can choose to resolve Deathlink before Mage A has to pay Upkeep for the creature that has Deathlink attached.

If Mage A has initiative, he can choose to pay (or not pay) Upkeep first, before letting Deathlink resolve... which might prevent Mage B from healing (if he doesn't choose to pay and lets the creature be destroyed).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:18:30 PM by iNano78 »
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Zuberi

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Oh, wow, it's been a busy day.

So, as others have pointed out, the first thing you have to understand is who has say over what. The rulebook tells us that we have say over when effects that affect objects we control occur. So, it doesn't matter who controls the effect, but rather who controls the object being affected. If my creature is burning, I have say over that burn damage (as an aside, it should be mentioned that nobody controls Conditions). If my creature is regenerating, I decide when it regenerates. If my creature takes damage in any way, I decide when it takes damage.

With this system, timing issues are pretty rare. Initiative never gets to decide when their opponent applies an effect. Instead, what they are deciding is when their own effects happen relative to their opponent. Does mine go off before or after theirs? That's it. That is the entirety of the power bestowed upon initiative. Deciding relative order.

Effects like Death Link can cause confusion because it appears to be affecting two different objects which may each have a different controller. The catch is, that these are actually the same effect. They are linked and have to occur at the exact same time. You can't break them apart. On top of that, the card itself makes it clear that the controller of death link decides when the effect occurs.

So, what we have then is Player A deciding when to use Deathlink, and Player B deciding when to regenerate the creature that has Deathlink attached. Since the relative order of these two events matter, we have a timing issue that gets resolved by Initiative. So, if Player A has initiative, they may say that they heal before you regenerate, and their healing just happens to kill your creature before it can regenerate.

Whirlpool, in my opinion, is a lot easier and more straightforward, but I feel obliged to comment on it since I'm the one who wrote the supplement entry and it appears like it wasn't quite clear enough. If player A controls a whirlpool, they decide when to remove the Dissipate tokens from that whirlpool. If player B controls a creature stuck in the whirlpool, they decide when their creature takes damage. Initiative decides when these two things happen in relation to each other. This is all part of the normal rules. Nothing special going on.

So, if Player B has initiative, they can't force Player A to resolve the effects on their objects in any specific order. Player A can resolve as many effects as they want on their objects before and after resolving the whirlpool, in whatever order they so choose. However, Player B does get to say when effects happen to Player B's objects in relation to Player A's, and can say that his creature doesn't take damage until after whirlpool's dissipate is removed. Which would avoid the damage all together on the last dissipate since the Whirlpool would be destroyed.

iNano78

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Alice!?!?! who the F*** is Alice?

You don't know Alice and Bob? Wait till you meet their friend Carol!
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Santar

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Zuberi, " If my creature takes damage in any way, I decide when it takes damage.".

If mage A left 1 dmg till dead, but have a lot of armor, regenerate 2 and Dorseus in his zone. Player B have ini and Pillar of Flame in this zone.

Player B can trigger the Pillar befor mage A heals, and if the attack deal 1 dmg mage A will be dead. Yes?

ExcaliburTK

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An attack in the up keep works differently than taking damage from effects, because the attack has a damage and effects step. So therefore if the player with initiative resolves his pillar he should be able too attack the enemy before regeneration.

Zuberi

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With Pillar of Flame specifically, the attack happens at the same time the dissipate token is removed, and the Player with Initiative would indeed get to decide when that happens in relation to the healing, since they are controlled by different players. So, Santar, the answer is Yes. You are correct.

exid

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I'm sure I'll understand MW's time rules... one day...

Kelanen

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I'm sure I'll understand MW's time rules... one day...

It is the most complicated bit of MW in my opinion. However it doesn't come up very often, and far less than people try and invoke it.

Whenever someone talks about doing something in initiative order, the first question I always ask is "Is it really about initiative order?" Because mostly it's not...