August 10, 2020, 06:26:19 AM

Author Topic: To give or to keep first initiative  (Read 2911 times)

Parkdeck

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To give or to keep first initiative
« on: March 19, 2017, 09:14:25 AM »
Some short notes on this "first initiative" thing:
When I started the game I thought the higher effect die wins and gets first initiative: "Horray, I can start first!"
Then came a longer period where it was clear to give first ini if you win it to be able to see what the opponent does in R1 and to be able to react on that: "Always give first ini except you planned something special where you have to have ini in round x"
At the moment I tend to keep first ini for the following reasons:
Most of the times I stick to my planned first round anyway (based on my main strategy and biased by the opponents choice of mage). Often, the choice of mage implies more than his play in R1 (polemic: the info that it is a necro has more value than knowing that somebody plays a crystal in R1)
Even faster decks often start with something "uncertain" like flower + Wynchwood faery (e.g. the nasty Beastmaster by s3chaos), so if its not a super fast deck it often still can lead anywhere after R1. So if he starts action in R2 after minimal economy in R1 I like to have the info right there to be able to react on that. If he continues building up in R2 I can assume that he will play slow(er).
Therefore, the information advatage in round two has often more value than in round one. Completely excluding timed rush decks (on both sides) of course.
To quote some young mage who thinks about paladin openings all day: "Any thoughts?"
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 09:26:15 AM by Parkdeck »

Enti

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 09:30:20 AM »
You're making a valid point ... need to think about it.

Reddicediaries

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 09:30:30 AM »
Some short notes on this "first initiative" thing:
When I started the game I thought the higher effect die wins and gets first initiative: "Horray, I can start first!"
Then came a longer period where it was clear to give first ini if you win it to be able to see what the opponent does in R1 and to be able to react on that: "Always give first ini except you planned something special where you have to have ini in round x"
At the moment I tend to keep first ini for the following reasons:
Most of the times I stick to my planned first round anyway (based on my main strategy and biased by the opponents choice of mage). Often, the choice of mage implies more than his play in R1 (polemic: the info that it is a necro has more value than knowing that somebody plays a crystal in R1)
Even faster decks often start with something "uncertain" like flower + Wynchwood faery (e.g. the nasty Beastmaster by s3chaos), so if its not a super fast deck it often still can lead anywhere after R1. So if he starts action in R2 after minimal economy in R1 I like to have the info right there to be able to react on that. If he continues building up in R2 I can assume that he will play slow(er).
Therefore, the information advatage in round two has often more value than in round one. Completely excluding timed rush decks (on both sides) of course.
To quote some young mage who thinks about paladin openings all day: "Any thoughts?"
That young mage would be me ;)
So generually I like giving int unless I plan to be attacking around turn 3. With my paladin, that usuallly happens with necro's. Vs most other matchups, you want to go temple, but if you get rushed, SWAT team/ Super mage is the way to go.
If your planing to play slowly, you usually want to give the opponent bc you want to react to what they do. If you plan for a timing push, make sure on the round you attack, you will have int.
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Super Sorcerer

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 11:16:20 AM »
ב"ה
It depend on my opening.
Let's say I play a beastmaster, if I intend to start with Lair+harmonize and bring a creature on 2nd round that will act in the 3rd round, and I will want it to act first, then I will want initiative in the 3rd round so I will take it in the 1st round. If I am going with double mana flower on the first round and a mana flower and a lair on the second round, and I bring a creature only on the 3rd round that will act only on the 4th round, then I will give my opponent the initiative so I will have it on 4th round.
If I play a paladin that goes Ehren+Regrowth on the first round, then Dorseus+Leather piece on the second round and I want to bring a hand of bim-shalla on the third round to heal Ehren completely, then I will take the initiative on 1st round so I will have it on 3rd round so Ehren will be fully healed before my opponent act.
If your opening include a ballista, you will probably want to cast the ballista on a round you don't have initiative, so you will shoot on your initiative, so you would decide initiative the way it could work out.

Generally, there is a round that you think you would probably want the initiative in, so you plan accordingly.

Beldin

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 06:58:35 PM »
I would say it depends on which is your "go" turn. If you need that to be turn 3 then you go first. If that is turn 6 then you need to pass it.

Kelanen

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2017, 09:08:26 AM »
Yes, most books have a critical turn or two in the 'predictable window' (4-6 turns max) where they either really want to have initiative or to not have it. Some books don't have much preference (if your drill down enough you can normally find one, but it's marginal), but most definitely do.

You need to first get to the stage of planning out your game against whichever book you are facing (which may be a default plan against most for those early turns), then work out where that critical juncture is, then pick that right initiative for that.

It matters, but not on turn 1...

DaveW

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 09:29:08 PM »
Against a Wizard, I always take the initiative given the choice due to their stupid spawnpoint... you may be giving your opponent a free mana is you pass it.
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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 05:48:01 AM »
With all the legendary creatures out there it would be logical to go for Ini more.

If i ran Alfiya i would want to summon her before my opponent.
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iNano78

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Re: To give or to keep first initiative
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 09:29:09 AM »
With all the legendary creatures out there it would be logical to go for Ini more.

If i ran Alfiya i would want to summon her before my opponent.

I've only seen this applied intentionally in multiplayer (Domination) matches, notably with the following:
- Cervere (with multiple nature mages);
- Altar of the Iron Guard (mage doesn't matter).

These become T1-with-initiative plays when they're critical to your strategy and another Mage might conceivably play them first if you don't.

When going all-in on a Legendary buddy in Arena, I could see this being an issue - e.g. with Alandell - he might even be a Forcemaster's lone buddy and brcome a T1 play to ensure he can be played.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 10:25:25 AM by iNano78 »
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