December 16, 2017, 04:56:31 AM

Author Topic: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!  (Read 3036 times)

Reddicediaries

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Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« on: March 20, 2017, 05:25:34 PM »
So I played a game with my paladin vs Jacksmacks gate wizard. He played vastly superior to me and props to him. But in after game discussion, it became apararent that it seems paladin has less than a 10% chance of beating gate wizard. To me, this seems VASTLY wrong. No mage should be completely unable to beat others in most circumstances. If two players of roughly equal skill and book advantages vs each other face of with pally vs gate wizard, gate wizard SHOULD NOT win about 90% of the time.
What are the communities thoughts on this topic?
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RomeoXero

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 05:47:37 PM »
 I'm seriously curious as to how you came to that math. And for what it's worth i believe those numbers to be both bunk and hokem. I don't understand how one could factor play skill, and every possible strategy a pally could use against a wizard with a spawnpoint? Dice rolls? Spells in book? I simply don't understand this kind of talk. It actually kind of frustrates me when folks boil this incredibly complex game down into percentages and tiers and stuff. I'm sure my best priest or pally could beat another's best wizard, or warlock, or forcemaster, etc etc etc.
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iNano78

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 05:50:23 PM »
Not sure what a "gate wizard" is - A wizard using Gate to Voltari? Does the wizard have any other spells?  ;)

Anyway, yes, I think there is definitely a "rock-paper-scissors" aspect to Mage Wars Arena. Assuming roughly equal player skill, I am of the opinion that:
- My curse-based Arraxian Crown Warlock is strong against most mages (and especially heavily armored mages) but has almost no way to win against a Necromancer;
- My Invisible Stalker Forcemaster is strong against many mages but has almost no way to win against a Wizard ('cause unlimited Ethereal quick-spell ranged attacks, which cut through both the Stalker and Mind's Eye like a warm knife through butter);
- My Bridge Troll Forcemaster is strong against many mages but struggles against Fire-based mages ('cause Troll has Flame +2 and no built-in armor);
- My Necropian Vampiress Forcemaster is strong against many mages but struggles against Undead swarms ('cause Vampiress only gets Vampiric vs living, and undead are generally Psychic-Immune, etc).
- A well-played Druid is strong against many mages but has more trouble with Warlocks ('cause Flame +X, and mostly Deathlock);
- Necromancers are strong against many mage types but have more trouble against Holy mages ('cause of all the "+X vs Undead" effects);
- Priest can have not-terrible match-ups, but pity the Priest who comes up against an Adramelech Warlock!

Yes, if there is a vast difference in player skill, the more skilled player will almost always win despite the match-up. But for players close in skill, the match-up can be a very uphill/downhill battle for some match-ups.

Another way to think about it: There are many "counters" in the game, and you generally can't afford all of them (which is a good thing, actually, because it makes for interesting deck-building).  If a mage is willing to spend sbp's on counters to living creature swarms (e.g. perhaps has cheap access to Idol of Pestilence and/or Suppression Orb and/or Mordok's Obelisk and/or Pillar of Righteous Flame, etc), then they're going to have an easy time against a mage whose primary game plan is to spam living creatures. A curse-heavy mage easily counters a mage based around armor. Banish can ruin the day of a single-big-buffed-buddy build. Purge Magic can wreck a curse-based mage. Waterfall Cloak and Raincloud can counter a Burn-based mage who doesn't have any answers to them. Chitin Armor + Waterfall Cloak, with protection, can counter a Jelly pit (at least until they're Dissolved). Psychic-Immunity ruins a Song-based Siren.

If a mage has enough counters (or has counters built in to their mage abilities, like Ethereal attacks or an inherent way to move Burn tokens, etc), that mage becomes scissors to the opposing paper to some degree.  Maybe not 100-0, or even 90-10, but it almost certainly isn't 50-50.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:57:38 PM by iNano78 »
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 05:52:34 PM »
I'm seriously curious as to how you came to that math. And for what it's worth i believe those numbers to be both bunk and hokem. I don't understand how one could factor play skill, and every possible strategy a pally could use against a wizard with a spawnpoint? Dice rolls? Spells in book? I simply don't understand this kind of talk. It actually kind of frustrates me when folks boil this incredibly complex game down into percentages and tiers and stuff. I'm sure my best priest or pally could beat another's best wizard, or warlock, or forcemaster, etc etc etc.
Well it seems the paladin has to rush or they get out economied. If the defender makes all the right choices, I believe they will generually win due to action advantage and board presence. 
The math is not exact I will not hesitate to admit. I should have done more research before posting those numbers,
I do my best to make books that contend with the following list of things so kindly provided by Jacksmack:
Gate wiz
Late game Necro
Warlock Fire rush
Temple
Flying
Buddy mages that chain you into specific zones then murder you
Tanks
Dot
Swarm

Think I got all of it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 06:08:53 PM by Reddicediaries »
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 06:15:59 PM »
Oh and druid with cheap plants and all that regen.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 06:17:47 PM »
Whether or not the match is timed or not also plays a big factor. In an untimed match, the wizard can outlast the dmg and come back and win. In a time match, the wiz has a harder time setting up and coming back from and early dmg disadvantage.
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Enti

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:19 PM »
I agree with nano that in MW not every mage has the same win-chances against each other.

Firstly, there are certain builds which are inherently favored against other types.

Secondly, there are some mages who are inherently favored against other mages.

And lastly there are differences in the "power level" of all the builds. (there are strong strategies and weaker strategies how you can build/play your mage)

I think very few people will dispute these basic thoughts? No news here.


The notion that every mage can win against any other mage probably has it's origin in the fact that it happens all the time. Even a curse warlock can win against a necromancer who is fundamentally favored in such a match-up.
First: If the warlock-player is a good one, he has thought about how to deal with a necromancer and prepared a plan B for these encounters.
Another possible advantage: The curse warlock already played numerous times against necromancers and knows exactly what he has to do.
To boil it down: The warlock player plays better (is more experienced) than the necromancer therefore he has a decisive advantage and can overcome his inherent disadvantages.


Okay, now to the question at hand: Is the wizard inherently favored against a paladin?

I think the answer is a clear "yes".

Why?

There are in general 3 ways to play a mage. Aggressive, midgame, control.
The paladin is intended for aggression (because of the banner and his specialty that allows him to fight in the front lines [fighting in the front lines is most effective in the early game])
Problem is that the wizard is (together with the druid) the best mage who can deal with early aggression.
=> Early aggression with paladin against wizard is doomed to fail. Even if you manage to take out the gate.Or especially if you focus on the gate. Because in the time the paladin deals 15 dmg to the gate it is prudent to assume that the wizard dealt (at least) 15 dmg to the paladin...  But if the paladin focuses on the wizard he is at a big disadvantage again because wizard absorbs dmg and he has his reinforcements right where they are needed and ready to interfere in fight.

Midgame-strategy: Playing with the temple.. hmm...
Problem is, that the wizard uses 1 action in the first turn to get to 13 channeling and the paladin uses 1 action to go to 10 channeling. So after turn 1 the wizard already has a pretty big mana advantage. (11 to 14)
Turn 2...  paladin shouldn't summon clerics (that would be control-strategy) but bring some better creatures to fight. Problem here is, in turn 2 wizard will deploy the lightning raptor and in turn 3 the gorgon archer. T4 the archer can start dealing weak markers and even if the paladin has some purifies that only makes the mana difference between both of them bigger.
Soo..  doesn't seem too promising tbh.

Midgame strategy with amulet: That way the mana difference in turn 2 is something like: 15 vs 14 for the paladin. (Amulet is great against the gate)
First time the paladin has an advantage whatsoever. Problem is now he is behind in terms of actions. And if the gorgon archer again starts to deal weak markers on his holy creatures, that reduces his actions to zero and his mana advantage disappears as well. But I'd say there is at least a fighting chance in terms of general setup.

Lategame strategy: Going temple and t2 cleric and t3 cleric = pretty much auto loss (even worse than early aggression). Because when the paladin finally summons his first fighting creature there are already waiting 2 gorgon archers for him, rendering the creature useless in only 1 turn. I don't see the paladin ever being able to put something on the board with which he could kill these gorgon archers. (Ballista isn't effective against them because they regenerate 4 dmg until the Ballista can shoot again ..)
Maybe if the paladin plays with 2-3 guardian angels and he manages to intercept all these nasty gorgon archer arrows.. Maaaybe? Problem is, while the paladin is summoning his angels and is bolstering his defense the wizard can summon a hydra and then teleport the paladin out of his protected zone and then he gets like 9+4+4 dice from the wizards creatures.. mhhh..

All in all: I think the paladin really has an inherent disadvantage against the gate wizard (played with hydras and gorgon archers). And the fact that jacksmack plays the wizard certainly doesn't make it easier to beat him ^^

Reddicediaries

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 08:36:09 PM »
So essentially, if you play paladin and the two of you are equally skilled, pally can barely ever win.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 08:44:48 PM »
The biggest problem is this setup is the gorgon archer.

With paladin you should play some big, strong, living creatures.

And against that gorgon archer is just perfect.

And to make things worse the wizard probably generates more mana every turn, increasing his advantage from turn to turn even further.

If he could somehow kill both gorgon archers that would even out the odds. But at least when I played with my paladin against jack, he was pretty good in denying me the kill. Eagle wings and stuff ^^

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 10:42:38 PM »
While I agree with the rock/paper/scissors comparison I firmly believe any mage can beat any other. You just might have a harder time of it.
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 10:43:16 PM »
While I agree with the rock/paper/scissors comparison I firmly believe any mage can beat any other. You just might have a harder time of it.
I agree, the tone of the post was poorly put.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 10:53:49 PM »
While I agree with the rock/paper/scissors comparison I firmly believe any mage can beat any other. You just might have a harder time of it.

You can put it to the test and challenge jack's wizard :p
And then you can report back, if these games have changed your mind ^^

/edit: And after the second or third match you'd even have an additional advantage since you already know all the cards he is using. I'd be trilled if you'd actually put it to the test!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 10:57:11 PM by Enti »

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 10:56:51 PM »
While I agree with the rock/paper/scissors comparison I firmly believe any mage can beat any other. You just might have a harder time of it.

You can put it to the test and challenge jack's wizard :p
And then you can report back, if these games have changed your mind ^^
It seems the American player base believe any mage can beat another.
The international player base seems to lean more towards the "this mage can not beat this mage"
Why is that so?
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 10:58:32 PM »
Uhm. I never said paladin can't beat wizard.

What I said is that jacks specific wizard is in many regards heavily favored against a paladin.

Reddicediaries

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 11:01:37 PM »
Uhm. I never said paladin can't beat wizard.

What I said is that jacks specific wizard is in many regards heavily favored against a paladin.
Badly quoted sry.
I meant heavily unfavored for certain mages to beat others.
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